Through this series of questions and answers by Dr. Lorraine Day, a basic truth is shown.

Q. Dr. Day, do you have a vendetta against the Jews?

A. No. I have no vendetta against the Jews. However, the self-proclaimed leaders of the Jews, the ones who most rank and file Jews accept as their leaders and spokespersons, do indeed have a vendetta against the “Gentiles” – the non-Jewish population of the U.S. and the world. In the “holiest” book of Judaismthe Talmud – it says, “Even the BEST of the Gentiles should ALL be killed.” How’s that for “hate-speech”? Who is prosecuting the Jews for hatred of Gentiles? No one! The Jews consider themselves to be victims - and are exempt from prosecution for “hate.”

I have many Jewish friends, and I even have blood relatives who are Jewish. A blood relative of mine is married to a Jewish spouse, and their children are half Jewish. Those half-Jewish children are my blood relatives. And I love them as much as the rest of my non-Jewish family.

Nothing can be considered a “vendetta” against anyone if it is the TRUTH!

The 8th Commandment says, “Thou shalt not lie.” (Exodus 20:16) Jesus said, I AM. . . the Truth.” (John 14:6) We are instructed by God to tell the TRUTH. Telling the truth is NOT a “vendetta.”

Are you aware that the leaders of the Jews have been responsible for having laws passed in Germany, Australia, Canada, and a number of other countries declaring a MANDATORY prison sentence (FIVE years in prison, in most cases) in addition to a huge fine, for even questioning the Jewish version of the “Holocaust”?

Just think - - - they have made it a CRIME to question history! Decent citizens are being put in prison for asking simple, direct questions about historical events! A few examples of those who have been imprisoned for questioning history are Ernst Zundel, Germar Rudolf, Robert Faurisson, Fredrik Toben – all imprisoned for “thought crimes” – all imprisoned for investigating the TRUTH!

If the Jews have made it a CRIME to question history, what are they trying to hide? And whatever happened to Freedom of Speech?

Q. Aren’t the Jews God’s “Chosen People”?

A. No. God loves everyone the same. No one is more special to Him than any other. The original Israelites (who were NOT “Jews” – they were just people who worshipped the God of heaven rather than pagan Gods) were “chosen” by God to exhibit God’s character to the world. However, they failed miserably! Instead of exhibiting God’s character, they became arrogant, proud, boastful, exclusive, self-centered, and corrupt, and believed they were superior to all other peoples – exactly as the present-day Jews have become. These are not the characteristics of Jesus Christ. They are the characteristics of Satan.

When Jesus was on earth, He confirmed this by saying to the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes and their followers (the spiritual – but NOT the genetic - ancestors of the present-day “Jews,”), “You are of your father, the Devil.” (John 8:44)

Those who today exhibit those same characteristics, the characteristics promoted by the Talmud – the “holiest” book of Judaism and the Jewish culture – have the same “father.”

Jews bash Christians continually in many ways, including making movies depicting Jesus as a homosexual, and putting a figure of Jesus in a bottle of urine and calling it “art.” But Jews are never held accountable for their crude actions.

However, whenever a Christian, or anyone else, tells the truth about Jews or Judaism, there is always the “howl” of anti-semitism. Jews admit that they smear those who tell the truth about the Jews by calling them anti-semites.

Q. Wasn’t Jesus a Jew?

A. No. Jesus was NOT a “Jew.” Jesus was – and is – God. And God is NOT Jewish. Jesus had no genes from His earthly father or His earthly mother – both of whom were NOT “Jews.” They were Israelites from the tribe of Judah. They were Judeans – or Judahites - defining the place they were born and/or the place of the temple (Jerusalem) where the presence of the God they worshipped, resided. (See “Who is Israel; Who is the Church”)

In addition, there is no such thing as an “ethnic” Jew. “Jewishness” is a culture, not an ethnicity. Judaism is a religion - not an ethnicity. Judaism is the religion of the Talmud – NOT the religion of the Old Testament. The Talmud is the “written down” version of the “traditions” of the Pharisees that Jesus so strongly rebuked, calling the Pharisees, “hypocrites, vipers, the synagogue of Satan, and ‘of your father, the devil.”

Q. I thought that today’s Christians are Judaeo-Christians.

A. The term Judaeo-Christian is a non-term – an oxymoron – a propaganda term. Judaism and Christianity are direct opposites. Christianity did not arise from Judaism. In fact, Christianity is the antithesis of Judaism. Jesus denounced Judaism (Talmudism – the “traditions” of the Pharisees) every time He was confronted by its leaders – the Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes.

Q. What did Jesus say about Judaism (Talmudism)?

A. While on earth Jesus was constantly rebuking and repudiating Talmudism (which later became Judaism) as well as its leaders – the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes. Jesus called them vipers and hypocrites. He said they were “of your father, the Devil, who was a murderer and liar from the beginning.” (John 8:44)

Q. Does God love those who now call themselves Jews?

A. Yes, God loves every person that He has ever created – but He loves them ALL the same. Everyone He has created is His child. He does not love the way many of His children are behaving, but He still loves ALL His children. God is going to change us all – through trials and tribulations - to be like Jesus. God loves the sinner, but He √ the sin! Everyone, including those who call themselves Jews, will “reap” the terrible carnage “they have sown” because “God will NOT be mocked!” (Galatians 6:7)

But it will not be to “eternal destruction.” The purpose of reaping what one has sown is to turn them back to right-doing (righteousness). That is what the “Judgment” is all about.

“Judgment returns to righteousness (right-doing).” Psalm 94:15

Judgment turns a person back to doing right.

When Thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” Isaiah 26:9

When the judgments of God are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn to do right.

Q. Are you suggesting that God will eventually save everyone He has ever created? What about those who choose not to be saved?

A. You are presuming that your will is stronger than God’s will. If that is true, then God cannot do anything unless you let Him. It that is true, then you are the one telling God what He can and cannot do. That is blasphemy. That is the second lie of Satan in the Garden of Eden, “Eat of this tree and . . . you will be as god.”

God says He is “operating ALL according to the counsel of His Own Will.” His will - - - not our will! (Ephesians 1:11)

God is the Potter, and we are the clay. (Jeremiah 18:6) Just how much “free will” does clay have?

Q. Why is it so hard for people, especially Christians, to believe that God is great enough, kind enough, and smart enough to save ALL those He has ever created?

A. We see God through our own character. If you want to see your enemies punished, then you will see God as a punishing God. You become like the “God” you worship.

“My vision of God is dependent upon the condition of my character. My character determines whether or not truth can even be revealed to me. Before I can say, “I saw the Lord,” there must be something in my character that conforms to the likeness of God.” My Utmost for His Highest, Oswald Chambers, July 13

Until the Lord truly enters my life and changes my character, I can only see from the perspective of my own biases.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall SEE God.” Matt 5:8

(They shall understand God and His true character of love).

[Who is “Israel”?

First we must define the term “house of Israel.”



And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Genesis 32:28

When Jacob fought with the angel after Jacob had decided to give up his life of deception and tell the truth, his name was changed to Israel. Jacob had no change in his genes. The new name given to Jacob, now Israel, was a “spiritual” name that revealed that Jacob was now a child of God. He had peace with God and men. That is the meaning of the name of Israel. It was a spiritual change in Jacob – NOT a change in his ethnicity. Jacob did NOT “become a Jew.”

Others who also worshiped the One True God of heaven were also called “Israel - - ites.”

In Romans 9:8, Paul concludes by saying, "That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God; but the children of the promise ARE COUNTED for the seed."

Galatians 3:16 says: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds, as of many, but as of ONE,' And to your Seed,' who is Christ."

Again Paul says in Galatians 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then YOU ARE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The Bible defines Abraham’s seed as those who worship Jesus Christ. These are the true Israel of the New Testament.

Who are the “lost sheep” of the House of Israel.

In the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the lost coin, both the sheep and the coin were found. Being “lost” was – and is - the prelude to being found. If someone is not lost, he doesn’t need to be found.

Only when a person recognizes that he is lost, does he wish to be found.

The promise of a Messiah was given to Adam and Eve, the parents of the whole human race. The Israelites – the believers in the true God – as opposed to the heathen nations (mistranslated “Gentiles”), were given many prophecies about the coming Messiah so they would recognize Him when He appeared

. He was the "seed of a woman" -- prophecy: Genesis 3:15 and fulfilled: Galatians 4:4. 


. He was a descendent of Abraham -- prophecy: Genesis 12:3 and fulfilled Matthew 1:1. 


. He was from the tribe of Judah – prophecy: Genesis 49:10 and fulfilled: Luke 3:33. 


. He was the heir to the throne of David – prophecy: Isaiah 9:7 and fulfilled Luke 1:32-33. 


. His birth place in Bethlehem – prophecy: Micah 5:2 and fulfilled: John 1:2, Luke 2:4-5, 7.


Born of a virgin – prophecy: Isaiah 7:14 and fulfilled: Luke 1:26-27, 30-31.

The duty of the Israelites was to share this information with the rest of the world – the heathen nations.

But instead, the Israelites became exclusive and arrogant and kept the information to themselves. They believed they were special to God – that they were God’s “chosen people” – not realizing that they were “chosen” to exhibit the character of God to the surrounding nations and to share with them the Good News of the coming Messiah and Savior – Jesus Christ – who came to be “the Savior of ALL mankind.” 1 Timothy 4:10

But instead, the Israelites kept these wonderful prophecies to themselves and believed that they were “chosen” to be above all other people, to rule over them, to make all others their slaves. By believing this deception, they became the followers of Satan, yet thinking they were following God.

While claiming to be righteous, they became so wicked that when Jesus came the first time as the Messiah, the leaders of the Organized Church of the day – the Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes and their followers – did not even recognize Jesus as the Messiah. In fact, they eventually called for His death by torture (beating, crown of thorns, slapping His face and ridiculing Him) and crucifixion.

That same evil attitude prevails in the Jews of today – the “cultural and spiritual” (but NOT physical) descendants of the Pharisees. Here is just a small sample of their vicious hatred of the non-Jews of the world.

Former Prime Minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, said the following:

“Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.” Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (1977-1983) (in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts.” New Statesman, June 25, 1982).

This is not the isolated sentiment of one Jew. These horrible racist views of the Jews are found throughout Judaism’s “holiest” book – the Talmud – which contains the same false doctrines of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time that resulted in Jesus calling the Pharisees the “synagogue of Satan,” vipers, liars, hypocrites, and “of your father, the Devil.”

Nothing has changed in the last 2,000 years. The Jews of today are behaving in the same way as did the Pharisees of Jesus’ time.

The heathen nations (mistranslated “Gentiles”) were unaware of these Messianic prophecies and would not have been able to identify Jesus as the Messiah, so it was only reasonable that Jesus would come to the group that should have recognized Him. That is why He came to the “House of Israel.”

But the Israelites had drifted so far from God and God’s Truth and their hearts had become so hardened, in large part because of their arrogance and exclusiveness, that they did not even recognize their own Messiah.

And they murdered Him!

But why did Jesus come to the “lost sheep” of the House of Israel?

If a person is self-sufficient, if he believes he can run his own life, if he believes he has little or no need for Jesus to run every aspect of his life, then he does not recognize that he is “lost.” His misguided self-sufficiency blinds him to his own need.

Jesus said He came to:

“. . . seek and save that which was LOST.” Luke 19:10

“They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.” Luke 5:31

Until a person realizes that He is “lost” without the Lord, until he recognizes his need for a Savior, he has no ability to understand who God is. He remains in darkness.

At the time that Jesus first came to earth, there were very few who were studying diligently and praying for the coming of the Messiah. Most were following the wicked Pharisees and their false doctrines of the “Organized Church” of the time – the synagogues – the counterfeit of God’s true followers.

God’s presence was in the Temple in Jerusalem, a place where no one except the Priests were allowed to enter. If anyone else entered, the penalty was death. The presence of God resided in the Most Holy Place of the Temple. So none of the TRUE followers of God “went to church.” They were not even allowed to go inside the building.

God was trying to show the Israelites that Christianity is NOT a religion. It is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

God’s presence does NOT dwell in “temples made with hands.” Acts 7:48; 17:24

The Bible tells us:

“Your BODY is the temple of God’s Spirit.” Corinthians 6:19

The enemies of Jesus Christ, those who would eventually cry out “Crucify Him” “Crucify Him,” were the leaders of the synagogues, the buildings where people went inside and sat down, the buildings that housed the counterfeit, false religion at the time of Christ. God’s presence was NOT in the synagogues. God’s presence was in the Temple before it was destroyed.

After the temple was destroyed, God said that His presence now dwells in us – His followers.

Conclusion: Jesus came “only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel” because the word “Israel” defines those who were truly looking for the First coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. And only those who recognized their need – their “lostness” – were able to understand that Jesus truly was the Messiah.

When those of the heathen nations recognized their need for a Savior, as did the heathen Canaanite woman with the demon-possessed daughter, they automatically became part of the “lost sheep of the House of Israel.”

Q. What did Jesus mean when He said to Peter, "On this Rock I will build My church." Mathew 16:18

A. The Catholic church claims that Peter, the disciple, was the first Pope, and was given the authority by Jesus to found what they refer to as the “true” church, based on the following Bible passage:

“He (Jesus) saith unto them (His disciples), But whom do you say that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (petros = a stone), and upon this rock (petra = a large rock) I will build my ecclesia (mistranslated church) and the gates of the unseen (the grave – NOT “hell”) shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:15-19

The Word “Church” is NOT in the Bible

Let us first dispense with one issue. The word “church” does not appear in the Bible – even in the New Testament! The word consistently mistranslated as “church” in Greek is ecclesia. It does not mean “church.” It means the “Called ones” or the “Called-out ones.” It has essentially the same meaning as the “Chosen people” in the Old Testament and the “Elect” in the New Testament.

King James ordered the translators to improperly translate the word ecclesia as “church” for political reasons. The word ecclesia has no hierarchical implications. It just means “believers” with no suggestion of buildings, memberships, leaders or any organizational structure.

Next, the word Peter means Stone (even a rolling stone) – not Rock. Jesus is the Rock.

During the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt through the wilderness, they were accompanied by Jesus, as it states in 1 Corinthians 10:4,

“And they did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

But even more than Christ being the Rock – the foundation of His ecclesia, His followers - Christ would build His ecclesia on a specific principle – the principle that God would teach us directly.

After Peter declared that Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the Living God,” Jesus said to Peter:

“. . . flesh and blood hath not revealed this to thee, but My Father which is in heaven. . . and upon this Rock (this Principle – the Principle that God – not man – will teach us directly) I will build My ecclesia.” Mathew 16:17

Jesus was proclaiming that His true followers would be taught directly by God – NOT by man – “flesh and blood.”

What is God's chosen method for imparting truth? Who is our Teacher?

God's plan at Mt. Sinai was that everyone personally hear the voice of God. The people's plan required God to initiate a complicated system of laws, rituals, and a human priesthood.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him." 1 John 2:26,27

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, without finding fault; and it shall be given him." James 1;5

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams." Acts 2:17

God desired to speak to the people directly. See Ex:19:9

But the people were afraid for God to speak to them. Ex 20:18-21

Having rejected direct communion with God the people remained at a distance and looked for a human intermediary to impart moral direction. But the introduction of a human system to bring about the proper spiritual condition was useless to prevent sinning.

The Creator had offered to every member of the Israelite community the moral benefits of personal communion with God. But this invaluable blessing was rejected by the congregation. In order to preserve some contact with Divinity, the Lord instituted the Levitical priesthood. This priesthood was abolished as ineffective after Christ, through His death, resurrection and ascension, re-established direct teaching through the Holy Spirit.

Where did the people turn when Moses was gone for so long? Ex. 32:1 (Back to the Egyptian pattern of leadership.)

Individuals and groups demonstrate their rejection of direct communion with God by trusting humanity to authenticate truth. Read the tragic story in Exodus, chapter 32. The molding of the "Golden Calf" represents man's efforts to fulfill his responsibilities to God through commitment to a human structure.

Let the Lord summarize for Himself the flaw in the old covenant. In the book of Hebrews, the question is posed:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." And what is the second or new covenant? Is it abolishing the first covenant (the law)? No, it is putting the law into the hearts and minds of the people. Hebrews 8:7

"I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts." Hebrews 8:10

The people did not want to be challenged by direct contact with God, but they feigned allegiance by agreeing to submit to a human leader. But the Lord recognized that their words did not reflect the condition of their hearts. They were a people who drew near with their lips while in spirit they remained at a distance. See Deut 5:25,27-29.

The plan of the people rejected the Divine concept of direct teaching. The people opted instead to place their trust in a human agency and to make that agency responsible for their enlightment. Because of this arrangement the people did not experience the fear of God, and ALL but two of them, Caleb and Joshua, failed to reach the promised land.

How did such a concept of a superior humanity originate? What series of human initiatives set in motion the theory that the congregation is a mob knowing nothing? Where was it first established that spiritual perception was an innately possessed quality of those appointed by human decree? Matt 21:23 "And when He was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto Him as He was teaching, and said, By what authority do you do these things? And who gave you this authority?"

It was the fallacious arrangement of the old covenant that led to Jesus being rejected as the Messiah. The Pharisees, "sitting in Moses' seat," directed the people to refuse the Light that had come down from heaven. The "leaven" of the Pharisees had distorted truth and made it error; yet the people still accepted their words as the very commands of God!

That same "old covenant" is practiced today, and there is no lack of those to covet "to sit in Moses' seat." People still commit their spiritual direction to human channels, and man-made authority is obeyed as the voice of God. In this age, human position and structure are honored as surely as the "Golden Calf." After bowing in respect to human councils, the people feel at liberty "to give themselves to revelry."

Conclusion:

The “Rock” on which God would build His ecclesia (His group of true followers) was Christ, and the Principle that Christ (NOT the “Organized Church”) would teach us directly. ]

Views: 177

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Deborah, some interesting stuff. Indeed, I think that the terms "Jew", "Israelite" and "Gentile" are confused and convuluted ones this day and age among most people. Israel was to be a line of genetically pure humanity. This got mucked up, even long before now, however, so it is rather asanine for anyone...really of any "stock"...to claim to be "purely" this or certainly without a shred of "that". The Israelites continually disobeyed His Commands to not intermingle with gentile nations. Furthermore, I'm sure an astounding number of people across the globe have ancestry from Israel.

Regardless, it's not our blood that matters. Israel now are those who accept Yahushua as Messiah. It's what He did. Sinners are not born into Salvation.
An appropriate verse, I think, also. I'm not sure if this was one of the fair amount listed in the article above.

"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that Elohim is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."-Matthew 3:9.
I really didn't know much about who Dr Lorraine Day was before seeing this post..and i looked some things up about her. From what i gathered, she has a really awesome story. She was led by YHWH to understand how to cure her own cancer...amazing and a great example for people who are afraid that mainstream answers are the only medical answers.

I would agree to much of what she had to say concerning the subject matter of Jews, and Judaism...for example where it pertains to the Talmud. The Talmud itself is not exactly a Jewish text..it's a Babylonian text which has gained the status of holier than the Torah in Jewish culture. That's a giant error for the Jews...that text being nothing but pure evil. The leadership, both political and religious in Israel and among Jews generally tend to not be Jews in heredity at all..but European.

Certainly it's true that Israel as a people who belong to YHWH are all those who have accepted Messiah, whether they are genetically Israel or not. I think questions of bloodline are for the most part a non issue aside from being useful for studying history...as Jonathan mentioned, people (of every kind) are born sinners, not born saved.

There are a few points, though, that i think she has erred in on a purely factual basis. Maybe i'm just being overly technical..but at the same time i think it's good to get all the facts straight in a matter which seems to breed a great deal of emotional response out of believers on both sides of the issue. I don't think it's a matter that Needs to be emotional...but it does need to be understood. If i were asked some of the same questions she was..this is what i would answer...

"Q. Aren’t the Jews God’s “Chosen People”?

A. No. God loves everyone the same. No one is more special to Him than any other. The original Israelites (who were NOT “Jews” – they were just people who worshipped the God of heaven rather than pagan Gods) were “chosen” by God to exhibit God’s character to the world. However, they failed miserably! Instead of exhibiting God’s character, they became arrogant, proud, boastful, exclusive, self-centered, and corrupt, and believed they were superior to all other peoples – exactly as the present-day Jews have become. These are not the characteristics of Jesus Christ. They are the characteristics of Satan..".


This depends on the definition of "chosen". I think people automatically feel it means "favored" but that's not the implication necessarily. Everyone is "chosen" for something in His plan. Israel (the12 tribes literally descended from Jacob) was chosen to be the means by which the Messiah would be born as well as the means by which His word would be preserved until that point. "Chosen" in terms of salvation is another matter...in this context, we who believe on the name of Yahushua are chosen in the sense of what counts eternally...and that is what we need to concern ourselves with.

"Q. Wasn’t Jesus a Jew?

A. No. Jesus was NOT a “Jew.” Jesus was – and is – God. And God is NOT Jewish. Jesus had no genes from His earthly father or His earthly mother – both of whom were NOT “Jews.” They were Israelites from the tribe of Judah. They were Judeans – or Judahites - defining the place they were born and/or the place of the temple (Jerusalem) where the presence of the God they worshipped, resided. (See “Who is Israel; Who is the Church”)..."


Well, yes..He was genetically Jewish in His physicality. He was and Is, of course, Elohim and therefor is above and beyond all human ethnicity, but in flesh He had to come within the physical stock of some ethnicity. A Jew technically is a descendant of Judah...one tribe of Israel..the prophecies which foretold of Yahushua declared Him to come from Judah and so that was a most important detail. He Himself said "salvation is of the Jews"...this verse can start raising the hairs on the backs of some necks, but this is not a statement which means "salvation belongs only to the Jews" (He was bringing the salvation message to a non Jew at the time) it is a stament to say that the tribe of Judah was the tribe which was used of YHWH to bring Yahushua into the world..for the salvation of all who would come to Him.

"Q. Are you suggesting that God will eventually save everyone He has ever created? What about those who choose not to be saved?

A. You are presuming that your will is stronger than God’s will. If that is true, then God cannot do anything unless you let Him. It that is true, then you are the one telling God what He can and cannot do. That is blasphemy. That is the second lie of Satan in the Garden of Eden, “Eat of this tree and . . . you will be as god.”

God says He is “operating ALL according to the counsel of His Own Will.” His will - - - not our will! (Ephesians 1:11)

God is the Potter, and we are the clay. (Jeremiah 18:6) Just how much “free will” does clay have?..."


I have to admit, i'm not really sure if her answer to this is "yes" or "no"..i gather it's "yes" and so i just want to mention here that i am surely not opposed to it if His will is ultimately that all repent and are saved, yet if that is the case i have a lot of questions about the many instances of warnings in scripture regarding the lake of fire and being cast out of the Kingdom eternally.

"Q. Why is it so hard for people, especially Christians, to believe that God is great enough, kind enough, and smart enough to save ALL those He has ever created?

A. We see God through our own character. If you want to see your enemies punished, then you will see God as a punishing God. You become like the “God” you worship...."


I certainly don't want to see my enemies punished, i want to see every one of them turn and repent..but i wonder if it's fair to call Him unfair if not all do. If He had decided to save no sinner, He would be no less righteous..Salvation wasn't something He owed anyone, after all..it was mercy. I am all for reasonably questioning on this subject matter, my only concern is with teachers who teach a Universal salvation message..is there a serious possibility of putting souls in danger by giving a false sense of security?

Just some food for thought here...i believe the genetic Israeli mission has served its purpose on Earth..to provide a way for Messiah to be born physically among mankind. YHWH had a particular interest in keeping that line pure from "the nations" which is literally what the word means from which "gentile" is translated. There was a real genetic reason for that...but that time has come and gone. Maintaining a bloodline is not an issue now, and a good thing it isn't, because i daresay there's probably no pure anything left on Earth...the point and purpose which all of that led up to was the real concern..and that is being a member of His spiritual family...the only question of family that counts.


Peace in Yahushua, to Every persuasion of believer in Him.
Two wrong clicks and TWICE my work has gone "poof"! So, I begin once again.

Cyprium, I realize this is a "hot topic" which is why I have endeavored to learn the "whys" of it, and what I have learned makes me agree with you that truth must be allowed to stand.

Dr. Day does believe in a universal salvation. She begins her argument with this introduction, The Good News About God! She continues the argument in her study titled The Word No One Wants to Talk About, gives a brief commentary here before giving her conclusion in the study What Happens at the Judgment?

Perhaps because I never heard this view addressed in any church that I have attended, along with Dr. Day's well laid out argument, I am inclined to believe she is speaking truth.

Dr. Day says Jesus is not a "Jew" based on the premise that the word "Jew" does not appear in the original Biblical texts. The Israelites certainly never referred to themselves as "Jews".

She also offers an answer to the question, "Is salvation through Jesus Christ, or is salvation 'of the Jews'?" in a study titled Salvation is NOT of the Jews

I don't know whether she has always been as political as she is religious, but she became more political at the time of the AIDs epidemic, when she was an orthopedic surgeon at San Francisco General Hospital.

You can listen to several interviews she did in 2006 and 2007 where she speaks about her views regarding health, politics, and religion. You may take exception to the show and its host, but she makes her positions very clear.

I offer these links for your perusal if you would like to learn more about her. I think she is a remarkable woman.

And now, I am going to quit before it all becomes for naught one more time!
Hello Deborah...

i'm sorry to hear you had such a time getting your post up...i've had the same thing happen to me while in the middle of a lengthy article, now i always put them first in notepad and copy them in...just in case.

Yes, truth has to stand..so whatever the truth of the matter regarding Universal Salvation, i am open to exploring it. The fact that this is not a mainstream "church" doctrine by itself is not necessarily a solid foundation for acceptance of it...Satan has deceptions for every persuasion of individual, mainstream or alternative, which is why we need to test everything in His word. I read the material at the links you included, beginning with The Good News About God! and here are some questions and observations i have about what i read..

"Consider the time-honored theories about God. He is viewed as One Who initially seeks the salvation of His creatures. From His position of supreme authority, He calls upon men to repent of their sins, obey His will and worship Him. He demonstrates patience while men play with His appeals, but the time comes when that patience is exhausted. Then He arises to perform His 'strange act'. With terrifying power, wielded in His own hands, He wipes the rebellious from the face of the earth, thus demonstrating that He is not a God to be scorned. He thus asserts His will by the naked use of destructive force, convincing men that they must obey Him or perish. This is the view of the Christian world."

This is what we Christians call a God of "love"!

Now let's look at the way Satan works. He appears initially to seek the best for Christ when, in Matt. 4:8,9 after taking Christ to a high mountain and showing Him the world, he offers to bless Him by giving Him the entire world if Christ will only worship him. "All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me." Satan implies that by the act of obeying and worshiping him (Satan), Christ won't have to go through a cruel death on the cross in order to save the world, Satan will give Him the world. Satan demonstrates patience and apparent kindness for a time, but after his offer is spurned, the time comes when, with terrifying vengeance he instigates men to kill Christ by the most vicious and cruel methods known to man."

The statement made here "This is what we Christians call a God of "love!" brings this question up for me..is it not entirely possible that we, as mere created things have a very weak understanding of what His wisdom is and what is loving in the context of a wisdom that we can't possibly grasp in its entirety? There is certainly a strong emotional desire in many of us to not want this outcome for anyone, but are we really prepared to say that we are wise enough to understand why this might possibly be the way things must be in the context of His love for those redeemed? What if a desire to see universal salvation is really the result of our infantile understanding of things we scarcely know how to consider?

In a comparison with the tactics of Satan..there is one big difference, right? Elohim keeps His good promises, Satan doesn't.

"Some say it's really a "loving act" for God to burn up His children because they wouldn't want to be in heaven anyway! It's interesting how we human beings would think it a heinous, monstrous crime if our neighbor purposely burned up his children, but when God does it, somehow it's classified as a "loving act". Many explain that God's burning up His children is God's "strange act". Others say, "Well, we just don't understand the ways of God" and they ignore the subject."

"What do we know?" Is the question..and i don't think it's necessarily correct to say that it's avoidance..i think perhaps it's incredibly presumptuous to assume we do know very much in comparison to Him. I don't know all His will, but i do know that no matter what it is, it's good.

From - What Happens at the Judgment?

"1) Could your children ever do anything bad enough that you would KILL them for it? And would you BURN them to death? I doubt it!!"

No, of course not, and we are given a commandment "thou shalt not murder". Here is the question though...is He just like us with all our flawed judgments and incomplete knowledge? I don't think we can judge Him according to a creature-level understanding. The truth is that He has killed people and ordered the killing of people and He could do that because He knew every one of their hearts and He knew what was just or unjust above what we are able to discern. We can't compare what creatures are forbidden to do to His sovereign understanding, can we?

"In essence God is saying "Love me ---and everything will be fine. But if you DON'T love me, I'll have to kill you, and I'll do it in the most horribly painful way possible. I have no other choice since you've broken my law!" In simple terms, God's really saying "Love me --- or I'll kill you!"

Where would we be if not for Him? For that matter, where would anything be without Him? Here's a question that is hard to think about on some levels..but needs confronting..is it not His Right to demand our worship? If not..then why has He commanded it in so clearly on so many occasions?

I actually believe it makes sense to say that He has no choice when someone has broken His law outside of redemption. If He allows anything in continuation outside of His law ultimately then He ceases to act according to His nature which is summed up in His law. In that case..Satan has won his main point of battle, to force YHWH to nullify Himself as Sovereign.


"But it is IMPOSSIBLE to truly love someone if you are afraid of them! "

I don't think that's accurate at all...scripture says "the fear of YHWH is the beginning of knowledge". I've heard many explanations of this "fear" topic being about respect..not fright...but the definition strongly suggests Fear in a most primal way, and it makes sense. Every instance where men encountered the mere hint of the full magnitude of His presence..they fell down. Even an angel inspired enough terror to have to repeatedly tell people "don't be afraid", so how much more does it make sense that He is a being of such power that the only normal...or possible response is real fear? That doesn't at all preclude love...many people i'm sure could attest to the fact that they had loving parents, whom they dearly loved that nonetheless could inspire fear in them if they disobeyed. I think also people really might misunderstand love. Do we love in our feelings? Then how good is it to love our brother when he's in need? If love does not Act as the result of a Decision...what fruit does it produce? We meet the need and thereby we love someone in a real sense. Don't we Decide to Act out love by obeying Him? I believe a feeling of affection and love are two different things and that one does not depend on the other or i could never in a million years love an enemy. That isn't to say i do not believe He has affection for us or that we should not for Him but affection means only so much without the proved out actions of love.

"2) Jesus died with the sins of the world on Him - a "surrogate sinner." If He died a "sinner" and the penalty for sin is death FOREVER -- then why isn't Jesus still dead????? How could He pay the "price" for us and satisfy the "penalty" for sin, if He was only dead for a short time, rather than forever?"

Yahushua could not be held in death's bond eternally because He Himself was no sinner...His defeat of death is what gives sinners the opportunity to look forward to eternal life..if death had not been defeated this way, the price would still be upon us. Rather than reflecting what any sinner would have to endure, i think Yahushua reflected why redeemed persons are redeemed.

"If we don't understand that it's FAR BETTER to be with the Lord right now, here on this earth, even if there were no future eternal life, then He will allow us to follow our own path until we finally learn that our own plans lead to nothing but pain and sorrow and that the ONLY road to happiness is to follow God's way."

The implication is that the only reason to come to Yahushua is to spare ourselves sorrow in this age or during a mortal life but there might be some serious contradictions between that idea and the bible. The bible is pretty expressly concerned with the eternal and in fact shows quite a bit of disdain toward the idea of living for now. Believers are not promised a good life here...in fact they are promised suffering and persecution. For what reason would we choose a hard way of living temporarily if the result is the same eternally? The scriptures direct us to store up treasures in heaven, to fix our focus on what comes after this, to not love the world or the life lived in it as it is now...i am not sure i can understand what benefit it is to us to follow Him now if in the end it's all the same.

What i didn't really notice was a lot of explanation in her writings on the verses which deal rather bluntly with the subject of eternal damnation. We need an answer for every one of them if we're to really consider that they do not mean what they appear to mean. I certainly won't call them symbolic since there is no evidence that they are within the text...so what do we do with them?

He who overcomes shall inherit all things and I will be his 'Eloah and he shall be My son.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, image worshippers, and all liars shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:7,8


On the subject matter of the Jews she writes this...

"Is "Salvation of the Jews" as the King James Bible translates John 4:22? The prepositions in the Greek are far more specific. The Greek word used here is "Ek" (#1537) which means "origin." The correct translation of this word is “OUT OF” not “of.”"

What she says in this sentence is basically what my point was...that the actual implication of the statement was that Yahushua..being in His physical origin a member of the tribe of Judah (the Jews) is Salvation...the Savior came out of the tribe of Judah.

Speaking on whether or not Israelites called themselves "Jews"...well that's, of course, an English transliteration and the actual word would be Yahudim...descendant of one tribe of Israel - Yahuda (Judah). Not all Israelites would call themselves Yahudim, only members of that tribe would.

I don't doubt that Dr Day is a remarkable woman and she is probably a very sincere believer...but that doesn't necessarily make her correct in all matters. The only source to judge the truth out of is scripture itself, weighing evidences apart from anything we've heard from anyone really. That's not 100% easy of course and when we are trying to discern the truth of someone's view on bible interpretation it is easy to allow the desired outcome be what we read and this is a subject which can be loaded with emotions which desire the outcome of Universal Salvation. I am not steadfastly denying all possibility that He will see to the salvation of every last creature...but until i have a greater amount of evidence that this will be the case than not, i can't commit to it as a view i hold presently.
Cyprium, I wanted to respond to your comments. I don’t have the discipline for prolonged mental exercise, so I have settled for this bit.

Yes, truth has to stand..>>

My original comment about truth standing was in reference to the title and main subject of my post which relate to the “Jewish” issue, but of course, gaining truth about whatever matter should be the goal…
In a previous post you said, ‘I have to admit, i'm not really sure if her answer to this is "yes" or "no"..i gather it's "yes"’ so my statement about Universal Salvation was only to confirm that Dr. Day does believe in it.

The statement made here "This is what we Christians call a God of "love!" brings this question up for me..is it not entirely possible that we, as mere created things have a very weak understanding of what His wisdom is and what is loving in the context of a wisdom that we can't possibly grasp in its entirety? There is certainly a strong emotional desire in many of us to not want this outcome for anyone, but are we really prepared to say that we are wise enough to understand why this might possibly be the way things must be in the context of His love for those redeemed? What if a desire to see universal salvation is really the result of our infantile understanding of things we scarcely know how to consider?">>

In 2005, one of the last years I homeschooled my children, I chose to use Gary North’s book, Tools of Dominion, to teach economics from a Biblical point of view. Mr. North’s interpretation and explanations of the Law and ordinances allowed us to understand why God would require the death of certain persons and nations.

I have always liked the rules and the structure of the OT Laws but many of my believing friends discount the OT and regard me as legalistic. While I may understand that evil cannot coexist with good, which is why there must be death and destruction, when I consider that I may be counted among the evil, the lines begin to blur. Maybe I am willing to entertain Dr. Day’s position because it does align with what I would like. I will have to give this more thought.

"What do we know?" Is the question..and i don't think it's necessarily correct to say that it's avoidance..i think perhaps it's incredibly presumptuous to assume we do know very much in comparison to Him. I don't know all His will, but i do know that no matter what it is, it's good.>>


“What can we know?” becomes my question, because it seems you are suggesting we cannot know. If I cannot know the Will of God, how can I be expected to obey? It is thinking like this that puts me off balance. Is what God asked of the Israelites, what Jesus asks of us really this difficult to understand and know? I have just never believed that was or could be the case. (I was going to say, “because too many of us are just too simple minded”, but then I recalled that I have been thinking recently about the difference between raising children educated in the ps in the ways of man vs what it might be like to raise children outside of any mandated educational system in the ways of God. What would that look like? Perhaps, as you suggest, we would see many things differently than we do today, swaying between the two.)

Where would we be if not for Him? For that matter, where would anything be without Him? Here's a question that is hard to think about on some levels..but needs confronting..is it not His Right to demand our worship? If not..then why has He commanded it in so clearly on so many occasions?

I actually believe it makes sense to say that He has no choice when someone has broken His law outside of redemption. If He allows anything in continuation outside of His law ultimately then He ceases to act according to His nature which is summed up in His law. In that case..Satan has won his main point of battle, to force YHWH to nullify Himself as Sovereign.>>

Yes, this became very clear to us as we worked through Tools of Dominion.

Off topic , if we accept that our Bible as we know it today is a hijacked version, with no original texts still in existence and few of us able to read in our own language with a high degree of comprehension, let alone an ancient language, do you believe that for whatever has been withheld from us, we will be punished?
"Cyprium, I wanted to respond to your comments. I don’t have the discipline for prolonged mental exercise, so I have settled for this bit."

No problem...you can take whatever time you need in responding to things. I have a hard time keeping up with things on here myself due to time i am able to put into it.

"My original comment about truth standing was in reference to the title and main subject of my post which relate to the “Jewish” issue, but of course, gaining truth about whatever matter should be the goal…
In a previous post you said, ‘I have to admit, i'm not really sure if her answer to this is "yes" or "no"..i gather it's "yes"’ so my statement about Universal Salvation was only to confirm that Dr. Day does believe in it."


Sorry i went off topic there..i have this "no stone unturned" kind of OCD thing going on probably...i thought it was a good point to explore because i think a lot of people do like the idea of it...i know i do...but everything needs a once over to test it out thoroughly.

"I have always liked the rules and the structure of the OT Laws but many of my believing friends discount the OT and regard me as legalistic. While I may understand that evil cannot coexist with good, which is why there must be death and destruction, when I consider that I may be counted among the evil, the lines begin to blur. Maybe I am willing to entertain Dr. Day’s position because it does align with what I would like. I will have to give this more thought."

Like a lot of issues, i believe people have a natural desire to take the Law to one extreme or the other...i do believe in honoring it as best we can in all common sense application and in light of Yahushua's coming, i don't think it makes sense (as some believe) that the Old Testament has no meaning for us, nor do i like the view that almost demonizes the Law. The Law is good...it's His Law..it also shows us what we can't achieve,
and so therein lies our absolute Need for Grace.

"“What can we know?” becomes my question, because it seems you are suggesting we cannot know. If I cannot know the Will of God, how can I be expected to obey? It is thinking like this that puts me off balance. Is what God asked of the Israelites, what Jesus asks of us really this difficult to understand and know? I have just never believed that was or could be the case. (I was going to say, “because too many of us are just too simple minded”, but then I recalled that I have been thinking recently about the difference between raising children educated in the ps in the ways of man vs what it might be like to raise children outside of any mandated educational system in the ways of God. What would that look like? Perhaps, as you suggest, we would see many things differently than we do today, swaying between the two.)"

What i meant to get across is that there are certain things which are going to be mysteries to us perhaps for as long as this world endures...many things probably...but not that we are unable to know the will of YHWH for our lives. What He asks of us i don't think is difficult to understand or know..i think among all things which are found in scripture..what He wants from us are some of the simplest things to understand and i think that is the case for a good reason.

When it comes to things which will happen at the end of all things..when this sin age passes..when all things are made new...i believe we'll all be surprised in one or more way, but those things which are mysterious are not things which stop us from doing His will now unless (YHWH forbid) we decide doing His will does not matter right now because we will have another chance later.

"Off topic , if we accept that our Bible as we know it today is a hijacked version, with no original texts still in existence and few of us able to read in our own language with a high degree of comprehension, let alone an ancient language, do you believe that for whatever has been withheld from us, we will be punished?"

No..i don't. I don't believe that because it is a repeated theme in scripture which shows us that each person is judged according to their knowledge. This begins as far back as Adam and Eve. They were accountable to nothing except the one commandment they were given and only when they received the broader knowledge of what good and evil meant were they then accountable to choose the right they knew over the wrong they knew. Babies, of course, are not accountable to all that they do not know either. Each of us have a measure of responsibility to do His will directly proportionate to how much of it we know.
One thing I find in Scripture is that when I find things that have been translated in such a way as to hide something, then I want to dig, dig dig and find the truth, cause the adversary doesn't bother hiding things that are not important. I will post some scripture and line through the King James Version which I will be using to place behind it the Septuagint version and I ask you all to consider your thoughts on Israel based on these words, rather than the people who write policies and run countries. Okay?Notice also the words right before the changes, they are: "Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee."




Deuteronomy 32

1Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

2My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

5They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

7Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

8When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel SONS OF GOD

9For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob Isreal is the lot of his inheritance.

10He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

11As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:

12So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

13He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;

14Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

15But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.( Those guys are still taking the blood of men , women and children)

18Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

22For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

23I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

24They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

25The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

26I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

27Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.

28For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

29O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

30How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

31For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

32For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

33Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

34Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

41If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

42I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

44And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

45And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

46And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

47For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

48And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,

49Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:

50And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:

51Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of MeribahKadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

52Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel.
the Septuagint sheds a lot of light on subjects sometimes.. it seems these days so many people allow themselves to be roped into flawed ideas of who or what is Israel, who Jews are, and how it all works in Yahuwah's plan.. often they allow themselves to believe that it all matters in an Earthly 'Zionist' political way, when in reality there are a few things being confused..

from what i usually see, people mistake Israel the people for Israel the place and tack on the place's political rulers to the land.. it's pretty disturbing.. especially since Rothschild purchased the physical property on which a political nation going by the name "Israel" sits.. and we all know he was certainly not carrying the desires of true Israel in his heart when he wrote that check.

it seems Jewish would technically be the term for one descended from Judah.. and Israelite would technically be the term for one descended from Israel.. there has been a big reform to change who Israel really is.. that drive to make it all 'spiritual Israel' without addressing the physical reality of the origin of who Israel as a people are.

Cyprium brought up a lot of good points in how terms like Israel and Jews are confused.. as a person from a long line of non-Semetic people, these are comforting:

Romans 8
{14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahuwah, these are sons of 'Eloah.
{15} For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
{16} The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of 'Eloah,
{17} and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahuwah and joint heirs with the Anointed, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be magnified together.

Galatians 4
{4} But when the fullness of the time had come, Yahuwah sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
{5} to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
{6} And because you are sons Yahuwah has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
{7} Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of Yahuwah through the Anointed.

there are a lot of believers giving money to organizations involved in a 'rebuilding' of the temple.. the 3rd temple on Earth, but built by human hands instead of established by Yahushua.. it's pretty creepy.. they've been working on it in the land of Jericho of all places too.. every group of people has been labeled and is being used to pave the way for a false Messiah and this is one area where there is a lot of money and a lot of effort being deposited.

Peace in Yahushua
Hi Bets..

In my observation it would seem that one of the enemy's most useful tactics in the world has been to utterly confuse this subject from every possible angle so i'm glad you decided to go digging for the truth.

"I ask you all to consider your thoughts on Israel based on these words, rather than the people who write policies and run countries. Okay?"

The people who write the policies and run the countries have done quite a bit to further this confusion. Many Christians and Orthodox Jews alike are staunch political Zionists...they see this as being pro- Israel and being anything else is anti-Semitic. One can not deal with the fact that the very individuals who funded the Holocaust were also those who established the modern "Israeli" state without coming to the obvious conclusion that Zionism is not benefiting Jewish people. The people writing the policies and running the government of that state are not doing so in the best interest of Jewish people...they are solidly under the auspices of the same criminals running every other government on Earth.

The effect it has on the other side of the issue is to make it seem as if those who are writing the policies and running the government represent Jewish people as a whole.... and there you get a hard division where confusion reigns on both sides. Jewish and non Jewish alike are victims of this global scam which has gone on for time immemorial and which has the sad result of dividing people against each other while ignoring the enemy. If Christian Zionists truly wanted to do good for the Jewish people.. the answer is witnessing to them of the salvation of Yahushua, not attempting to fund a third temple.... Zionism has sadly made the message of salvation to Jewish people a non-issue in the minds of Gentiles. We all Absolutely need forgiveness and the Savior who provides it.
The days of old are brought up in this scene. Anytime you see this, you can bet that 99.95% of folk are not going to have a clue. Its been a long long time and the beginning was hidden behind fairy tales and lies.

The Hebrew word for SONS OF GOD is clearer to most of us here than the English would be though, its Nephellium.

So lets take it back to the farthermost history we know. The Garden. At that time, speaking of which, lets go to Peter and see about time when YHWH is involved: 2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So lets imagine that the creation days are in 1000 years. And lets also consider that ADAM may not have been only created on day 6, because when Cain was told to leave, he went to an established city. Only men build cities.

Adam the 2nd was created on the 8th day and his family with him and he was placed into the Garden of God, Eden. He had a living soul.

The world had already been divided into Gods place and not God's place, okay? can you stretch your imagination to see this?

I know it may be hard for many to see, its been hammered into your mind in so many ways besides this.

Now look at the verses themselves.

It says that YHWH divided the earth into kingdoms according to the NUMBER of the NEPHELLIUM. He gave these creatures (in Enoch they are referred to as MONSTERS) but He retains one place for HIS OWN KINGDOM.

Then when he does choose a people, He leads them to this place where HE IS IN CHARGE.

I know it doesn't look like YHWH is in charge over that place any more. But trust me, HE IS. Sometimes YHWH uses bad men to do His will. Look at Nebuchannezer. He was the enemy of Jerusalem, used to conquer and take the people captive. But if you don't believe YHWH was using him, them read chapter 5 of Daniel, which the king wrote himself.

I struggled with this issue. I am not a Gentile. I am by blood a Jew. Heritage means more to me than most, because most of my life I did not know what place I came from and when I found out , it changed me: because of the Word of YHWH. I wasn't more special to Him because I was a Jew. I was more special to Him because I cared about what He was all about, what He wanted me to do, and my desire to learn as much about His Word as I could. I became the obedient loving child we all hope we raise, not the rebellious cheater who lies to a parent at every turn, as a parent of 3 I assure you a favorite will not the rebellious one.

I made a plan early on to go to Israel. My life was a spirit led one and circumstances came about that made it clear I could not go. And later it was even more clear to me not to even try again. I wondered why ? Later through the Word, it became clear.

Think again about this scene. The world is divided into regions ruled by these kings and one spot is saved to be ruled by YHWH. How long did He actually stand as king over these people? From Joshua to the time of Samuels youth. There the people threw off their king. Look at the verses about what YHWH will allow these people to do. It tells them what mistakes they will make way long before they make them. They did it to themselves, even with this warning.

I do not have an opinion about Israel except for this. The land is crying out to be cleansed from the yuck that has taken over her earth.

I know this, I will not be among these against:

Zechariah 12:2
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

I will be under siege too. Jerusalem is under siege now. They are not keeping the whole law of YHWH, if they were, they would allow messianic Jews to immigrate. They are under siege and have been from the time my own MARXIST family member Dov went there in the late 1800's. He was not a loving Christ like man. He was a communist who established communes. They didn't thrive as the Utopian dream he expected. He thought he was creating NEW JERUSALEM. If he had been those same kibbutzes would be there and they are not. That dream was the dream of men, NOT the plan of YHWH.

So I have peace knowing that I can hate the things the people on the land are doing and still love what I am commanded to love. ALL THE THINGS OF YHWH. That included His land that HE chose.
And those people whom He has chosen too. Who are they? THOSE WHO DO HIS WILL.

It is why I asked to come here for sharing and fellowship. Those who do his will, know truth, talk truth and seek truth. They love Him. They strive to do the things YHWH asks them to do. I too am seeking NEW JERUSALEM, but unlike my own blood relative ( whom I have honored by giving my only son his name) I seek the city YHWH said HE would bring with him when He returns.

I don't read articles that speak against the land or the people any more. It is too sad. I know how unclean that land has become. I know that the Supreme Court is built as a freemasonic shrine. I know the thief Rothschield thinks he bought and paid and owns it now. But he doesn't even know the owner. That owner will return to claim the land and soon. And I am blessed to be alive to be able to see this happen. What an honor. So I will be careful. Not to ever speak against the land my Father owns and loves and will soon claim. No matter how tattered and dirty she has become now.

She was just as dirty once before these verses are about both , the past and the future:

Ezekiel 16

1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

4And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

5None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

6And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

9Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.

11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

12And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

13Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

14And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

16And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

17Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

18And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

19My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.

20Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,

21That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

22And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

23And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the LORD GOD;)

24That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street.

25Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

26Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

27Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.

28Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

29Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.

30How weak is thine heart, saith the LORD GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

31In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;

32But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

33They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

34And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

35Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

36Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

37Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

38And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

39And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.

40They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.

41And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

42So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

43Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.

44Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.

45Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.

46And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

47Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.

48As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

51Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

52Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

53When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

54That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

55When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

56For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

57Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.

58Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.

59For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

60Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

61Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.

62And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:

63That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
The English phrase "sons of God" is actually translated from B'nai Elohim. Nephilim are often thought of as the same as B'nai Elohim, but nephilim literally means fellers, tyrants or those who fall, the singular being nephil. These are the hybrid children of the B'nai Elohim and human women. The original text from which the Septuagint was taken would have then said "B'nai Elohim", translated "angels" or "sons of God".

I very much approve of considering all possibilities, of weighing evidences carefully and never rejecting anything simply because it has not been accepted before. the things you mention i have heard before and i would like to search out the evidences for or against the matter.

"So lets imagine that the creation days are in 1000 years."

It is said a thousand years are as one day to Him, yet Genesis points out an evening and morning for each day. how is this reconciled?

"because when Cain was told to leave, he went to an established city. Only men build cities."

Does it clearly state that Cain went to an established city and is it a known fact that only men build cities? Can angels build?

"Adam the 2nd was created on the 8th day and his family with him"

Is there a clear intention to place this man's creation on an 8th day or is there a reiteration of the creation of the seven days?

"The world had already been divided into Gods place and not God's place, okay? can you stretch your imagination to see this?"

I think i perhaps understand what you are saying here. The Earth is divided according to beings which have gained dominion on it?

"Sometimes YHWH uses bad men to do His will."

Yes, i agree that is true

"I do not have an opinion about Israel except for this. The land is crying out to be cleansed from the yuck that has taken over her earth.... I don't read articles that speak against the land or the people any more. It is too sad. I know how unclean that land has become. I know that the Supreme Court is built as a freemasonic shrine. I know the thief Rothschield thinks he bought and paid and owns it now. But he doesn't even know the owner. That owner will return to claim the land and soon. And I am blessed to be alive to be able to see this happen. What an honor. So I will be careful. Not to ever speak against the land my Father owns and loves and will soon claim. No matter how tattered and dirty she has become now."

Perhaps we can all agree on that. The uncleanness that is taking place there is an affront to Him and the land He chose, we all look forward to a day when He has both cleansed the land and all creation of all uncleanness. Maybe that day is not far from now and we will all be here to see it.

Reply to Discussion

RSS

© 2021   Created by Cyprium.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service