The Nature of Yahushua

[Matthew Kindle]

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts: I am the first and I am the last, And there is no Elohim besides Me."

There is debate in the Christian Community over the nature of Yahushua, and what exactly the "Holy Trinity" is. Many Christians are quick to say Yahushua is Elohim, but then claim He and The Father are separate persons somehow. They preach a doctrine that claims there is One Elohim, but that Elohim is made up of three different people. An example would be there is one senate and 100 senators. Before the Council of Nicea in 325 AD the doctrine of the trinity was not universally accepted by all the various Christian bishops. When the Constantine organized the first "Orthodox" church there were votes about many things that would be accepted into Constantine's church, and the trinity doctrine was one of them. By majority vote it was declared that Yahushua was not YHWH, but rather 1/3 of the "Godhead". My purpose is to use the scripture, which along with prayer should be the bases for what the Christian religion teaches. I believe the answer is in the scripture to what doctrine is true, and what is the traditions of men or attempts by men to use religion for personal gain.

As far as the Christian (in reality universal) Elohim goes no Christian will deny that He created the heavens and the earth. This is taught in the bible in Genesis....

Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth."

In Genesis they use Elohim, which is a title and not specific. Further reading into genesis reveals that the "Elohim" used in Genesis 1:1 is YHWH. In the New Testament there is a short account of Creation, and a clue to who Yahushua is. It's found in the Book of John....

John 1:1-4 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim and the Word was Elohim. He was in the beginning with Elohim. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men."

John suggests here that the Elohim in Genesis was Yahushua. John writes "the Word was Elohim" the Word being Yahushua of course. At the time of Genesis the Flesh of YHWH which is Yahushua was not yet created. He was still in Spirit. The nature of Elohim is Spirit, and not Flesh. But so the material world could see Him, YHWH Who is Spirit became Flesh. Material Fleshy eyes for the most part cannot see spirit, and because of this could not see YHWH. He appeared in Flesh to teach, heal, and then sacrifice for the sins of the world in the ultimate act of love, self sacrifice. Just as our physical bodies are hosts to our spirits, in the same was is Yahushua the Physical Body for YHWH.

John 14:9 - "Yahushua said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father?"

This statement is clear "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". Again in John Yahushua says

John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."

It is written in Colossians...

Colossians 1:15-17 - He is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Perhaps people do not realize YHWH was still omnipresent while teaching through Yahushua. When Yahushua taught in Matthew 6:9 he said...

Matthew 6:9 - "Pray, then, in this way: `Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your Name."

YHWH was teaching through Yahushua, and in heaven at the same time. His omnipresence didn't compromise while in the Flesh. The prayer was meant for all generations of faithful, so when we pray we are praying to Him who has since ascended into heaven.

Some will argue that because of Yahushua's words in Matthew 27:46..

Matthew 27:46 - "About the ninth hour Yahushua cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY ELOHIM, MY ELOHIM, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

Yahushua and YHWH are two different people, and Yahushua was calling upon Him. First off the omnipresent YHWH is the Father and Creator of the Flesh Body Yahushua. Secondly it never occurs to anyone that Yahushua is reciting Psalm 22...

Psalm 22:1 - "My Elohim, my Elohim, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning."

YHWH is the Author, and Yahushua is the Author writing Himself into the Story. Writing the story and in the story at the same time. There is only One Elohim, and that theme is consistent throughout scripture.

Exodus 20:2-3 - "I am YHWH your Elohim, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before Me.

What is also consistent in scripture is the fact that YHWH should not and will not share His glory with another. He is the Creator. There is only One. Scripture supports this, but men and demons alike have been know to issue forth tainted doctrines in order to confuse. Many who claim to accept the trinity doctrine admit its confusing, and doesn't add up. The answer is simple. Yahushua and YHWH are One.

"The truth is an offense, but not a sin" - Bob Marley

[Cyprium]

This is an example of an issue (and there are many) which the enemy has concocted two sides of in order that, by all means, he can distract you from the truth lying somewhere beyond either choice he offers. I likened this tactic once to a ditch on either side of the straight and narrow road.

for those who come to the understanding that one doctrine is in error (the trinity for example)...they gravitate toward the opposite extreme usually....Satan knows this and provides another ditch on the other side (Yahushua is not Elohim) or the reverse migration occurs. Neither extreme avoids making the Creator into multiple persons and the Scriptures are clear that He is One.

[Bean]

Understanding that Yahushua,YHWH and The Holy Spirit are One is so essential to understanding who exactly the Almighty is.. when people believe either side of the engineered choices otherwise, they seem to often end up with a "God" who has 3 separate personalities which do not perfectly agree (reminiscent of the 2-faced "God of the Old Testament" VS the "God of the New Testament" idea), or a "God the Son" who is not equal to "God the Father".. it seems like all possibilities in between exist and are swallowed up too (Benny Hinn once claimed the "trinity" was essentially "9 persons").

perhaps many have ideas about the Almighty that consist of a "God the Father" who is responsible for Judgment.. a "God the Son" who is responsible for Mercy.. and a Holy Spirit who is responsible for "Guidance".

understanding that the same Creator who judged the world with water is the same Savior who will judge the world with fire, and that same Creator Savior is the same Holy Spirit who indwells, and that our One Almighty has done it all in that true 'Alpha and Omega' style, allows us to really 'grow in the knowledge of our Master and Savior Yahushua The Anointed'. 2Peter3:18

knowing what "the nature of Yahushua" is involves accepting the fact that He is completely equal to Yahuwah and is His Holy Spirit.. it really sobers up the mind in bringing home how deadly serious that "fearing" the Almighty command is, and softens the heart in knowing that the same Almighty we fear is the same Almighty who gave His own life for our sins because He loves us.

realizing that the Almighty is recorded as "inhabiting" individuals and "appearing" in forms, could perhaps help some to see that the Almighty is Spirit, and that Spirit can "inhabit" and "appear" the same way that other spirit beings are noted as inhabiting people (possession) and appearing to people (manifestation); so the Almighty is not a different being just because He inhabits someone or appears to someone.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Master, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me saying to me, "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amein."

Revelation 1:8,17-18

[Matthew Kindle]

Malachi 3:1 - "Behold, I am going to send My messenger (Elijah a.k.a John the Baptist), and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord (Lord meaning strong's number 0113), whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple (the temple of YHWH); and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says YHWH of hosts.

[Gayle K. Horn]

Below is the Creed of St. Athanasius.  I would appreciate knowing where you might depart from it, beyond semantics and/or language.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the Catholic Faith is this:
That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible,and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,
So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, here be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another;
But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;
God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood.
Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether, not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

[Cyprium]

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith."

Well...i definitely depart from that. Catholicism has some Very concerning doctrines which do not fit scripture..though they do fit a multitude of pagan belief systems. Our Savior made salvation a simple concept..."whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life".

I believe that our Creator is reflected in the image of man and therefor what is often thought of as three distinct persons can be summed up much more precisely and correctly by understanding that He is Spirit (the Holy Spirit) and He is flesh (Messiah) and He is a living soul (the Father).

[Gayle K. Horn]

Firstly, there's a difference between the Catholic Faith and Roman Catholicism.  I agree that Roman Catholicism has some very troubling doctrines such as the Marian cults within the RC church.  Although I worship in a sacramental and liturgical fashion, my core leans more toward Protestantism, which would be sola fide.  I also believe sola gratia, sola scriptura, solo Christo and most importantly soli Deo gloria.  One of my favorite Bible teachers preaches that "the main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things".

With all due respect what you are suggesting sounds like a form of Modalism.  Again I understand issues with RC and I also understand that much error crept into the church after Constantine.  However, modalism was condemned by Tertullian in 216 A.D., well within the time period of the ante-Nicene fathers.  All things necessary for salvation is taught in the Scripture, whose canon is exemplified  with that in the KJV.  One of the reasons I do not except RC teaching on Mary is because there are no canonical sources within Holy Scripture that attest to those doctrines.  The sources for such doctrines come from extra-canonical books, more properly known as pseudegraphia, such as the Gospel of Thomas. 

There are several ancient texts that are considered pseudegraphia which were not included in the Hebrew canon as well.  It's not about being an ancient text, it's about whether or not it is "God-breathed".  Not everything that has been written about YHWH or Jesus is God-breathed, even if it was written over 2000 years ago.  I trust in the sovereignty of God and that the canon of His scripture, the canon that is broader agreed upon across the spectrum of the Church Universal is what He has given us to guide and direct us and teach us about His Son.  And this work has been accomplished by the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that was sent forth by the Father and the Son to lead us into all truth, that same Spirit that was promised to the disciples before His Ascension.

[Cyprium]

I agree with this... "the main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things".

I do not hold to modalism as that would state that there are "offices" and He simply takes one to perform a function..but humanity is made like Him, right? He is One Elohim...."our Elohim YHWH is One Elohim" He is omnipresent and Omniscient.

"There are several ancient texts that are considered pseudegraphia which were not included in the Hebrew canon as well.  It's not about being an ancient text, it's about whether or not it is "God-breathed".  Not everything that has been written about YHWH or Jesus is God-breathed, even if it was written over 2000 years ago. "

I agree....measure everything by His Word.

[Gayle K. Horn]

But you do not believe in the three distinct persons, and like it or not, that is a form of modalism.  Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus the Christ (Y'shua the Messiah) empty Himself of His Godhead when he became incarnate.  St. Paul discusses this in several of his letters.  I believe in the Doctrine of the Incarnation, an event that took place in space and time.  I have a whole theory on it that some have referred to as "Gayle's Disneyland Theology". 

The One God, the Almighty, became Incarnate as a man, humbling Himself to enter into His creation as a helpless baby.  I don't understand because I am a mortal and even in the world to come none of us will understand the operation within the Godhead.  It is a mystery to which I surrender myself along with others like the sovereignty of God in all things.  I sometimes think that might be the sin and the pride of Satan, that he demanded to know God as He only understands Himself.  Since the Almighty entered into His creation in a material fashion there is no way that would not cause a massive shock across the space/time continuum.  This sent waves across time in both directions reverberating about the Incarnation, Jesus' life, his passion, crucifixion and most glorious Resurrection.  That's why I believe the are various mythos and/or prophecies about an incarnate god on either side of the event.  Another aspect is that the further out in time it goes the waves are decreased into ripples, which is why one needs to stay as close to the event as possible.  And that's why I look to patristic era Christianity as a more reliable source of authentic Christianity than anything else.

I know that I'm a pain in the a**, but I'm a stickler for orthodox theology and I trust that the Lord has given me a very clear understanding on that matter.  Since I still believe that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are operative, I also know that I have been given the gift of discernment which at times has been uncanny.  Since I also believe in the sovereignty of God, I trust that He allowed me to wander in my spiritual ozone for His own will and purpose.

soli Deo gloria...to God alone be the glory

[Cyprium]

"The One God, the Almighty, became Incarnate as a man, humbling Himself to enter into His creation as a helpless baby. "

That's something i believe too...