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Been going through these excellent older posts.
For or the most part, what can we then say about the overall genetic structure “ of Europeans? Canaan is obviously a major donor, but at the same time, we know that the horse riders from Japheths line have contributed as well (in my mind as of this writing, paternal haplogroup R- which accounts for the haplogroup lineages of about 50% of European men- is most likely a Japhetic set of lineages that came out of Iran)
interestingly, the current state of secular archaeo-genetics has been poo-poo ing the so called Out-of-Iran theory of the origins of Indo-European speakers and the current favored theory is that the branch popped up on the Pontic steppe. The steppe is no doubt where many scythians and gomerites found themselves, but would Iran not be the Scythian origin point?
Also, there seems to be a layer of European ancestry that has a connection to the Caucasus which the Basques appear to be a linguistic remnant. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Troy connection?
Just spit ballin. Blessings!
Historically the "out of Iran" belief was pretty well accepted in people's own oral traditions and records regarding Scythians. When modern "science" starts to try to give a different story than what was historically known, there's usually something being hidden. Why disregard it without explanation as to why people would have largely believed in an origin that was false? Seems like the reply to that usually boiled down to "people made up crap back in the day".
There are Scandinavians who claim Troy as their origin. Could be that Basques were a group that stayed in that region when others traveled north but not sure on that.
Interesting. Yes, I have heard echos of something about some Scandinavian kings claiming Trojan ancestry. There has even been one scholar who has become a bit of an academic laughing stock (maybe cause he's right?) about Troy and the events of Homer's Trojan War taking place in Scandinavia, the Baltic region, and Finland. I take it based upon your choice of phrase regarding the Basques having "stayed" in their region that you do not agree those events happened in the north. Here's the gist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baltic_Origins_of_Homer%27s_Epic_...
Basques are genetically not radically different from non-Basque Spanish and French, but do have a bit of a more "northern" pull to their genes relative to their location. Hmm. I'm not even sure about the origins of the Trojans...a Japheth-derived people? Connected or not connected to the Iranian migrations?
Also, there's a chance that they are more a remnant of Phoenicians rather than Trojans. Or not?
Sinclair said:
Historically the "out of Iran" belief was pretty well accepted in people's own oral traditions and records regarding Scythians. When modern "science" starts to try to give a different story than what was historically known, there's usually something being hidden. Why disregard it without explanation as to why people would have largely believed in an origin that was false? Seems like the reply to that usually boiled down to "people made up crap back in the day".
There are Scandinavians who claim Troy as their origin. Could be that Basques were a group that stayed in that region when others traveled north but not sure on that.
As i understand it, they migrated to the Scandinavian regions after the Trojan war and the location was in the region of Turkey. Trojans may actually be of maternal Phoenecian ancestry, (probably through Europa). They would be hyrbid - a branch of the same family Merovingians derive from.
I see. I wonder if mtdna group H is represented by Europa. This is the dominant maternal haplogroup among Europeans, something like 42-45% of all European-derived people.
What were the Trojans paternally derived from? R1 Japheth lineages? Pardon me if I get a touch annoying...lol
The European genetic structure I take it is mostly unchanged since the Iranian migrations westward? A blending of Trojans and Iranics? Interesting stuff to digest.
Sinclair said:
As i understand it, they migrated to the Scandinavian regions after the Trojan war and the location was in the region of Turkey. Trojans may actually be of maternal Phoenecian ancestry, (probably through Europa). They would be hyrbid - a branch of the same family Merovingians derive from.
Whoops, did not take into account Tiras, son of Japheth. I suppose some japhetic lines in Europe where not connected to later “Aryan” peoples, even if Trojans mingled with nephil lines (apart from the obvious nephil contribution of Phoenicia).
Paternal haplogroup R is represented by about half of European men and surely must be connected to aryan speech , Scythian horseriding culture, and other influences. For reference, iranic speaking middle easterners and North Indian Brahmins have large amounts of R as well. Most non-Indian, non Persian/other Iranics in the Middle East have much lower R, and the group is traditionally absent among east and southeast Asians. Amerindians interestingly have some R1a- this may be early R1a and not connected to Europeans.
Nearly forgot, R is well represented by Turkic-speakers...although the bearers of Turkic languages probably, I don’t guess, had much less if any R...these r-bearers must be from earlier iranic-speakers, who indeed dominated Central Asia prior to Turk expansion from the northeast.
Whats the other half of European male haplogroups? Ydna “I” is a significant group in Europe, being more numerous than R in regions of Scandinavia. It’s related somehow to ydna “J” and interestingly, “I” is confined to Europe. It also is high in the Balkans.
Ydna “G” today peaks in the Caucasus, and was carried by the so called first farmers in “Neolithic” Europe. It’s been noted by researchers that by the middle of the “Neolithic”, the greater bulk of G’s in Europe dropped down rather starkly. It still exists in Europe as a usually pretty rare group.
naturally, there are others, and some variation in frequency from region to region.
sorry about all that...I suppose this would have been better-suited as an entry into my Haplogroups post. Blessings.
WeightofAudio said:
I see. I wonder if mtdna group H is represented by Europa. This is the dominant maternal haplogroup among Europeans, something like 42-45% of all European-derived people.
What were the Trojans paternally derived from? R1 Japheth lineages? Pardon me if I get a touch annoying...lol
The European genetic structure I take it is mostly unchanged since the Iranian migrations westward? A blending of Trojans and Iranics? Interesting stuff to digest.
Sinclair said:As i understand it, they migrated to the Scandinavian regions after the Trojan war and the location was in the region of Turkey. Trojans may actually be of maternal Phoenecian ancestry, (probably through Europa). They would be hyrbid - a branch of the same family Merovingians derive from.
Also, Europa had three sons who were not fathered by a human and any human ancestor of that creature was allegedly born pre-flood and not a descendant of Noah.
WeightofAudio said:
Whoops, did not take into account Tiras, son of Japheth. I suppose some japhetic lines in Europe where not connected to later “Aryan” peoples, even if Trojans mingled with nephil lines (apart from the obvious nephil contribution of Phoenicia).
Paternal haplogroup R is represented by about half of European men and surely must be connected to aryan speech , Scythian horseriding culture, and other influences. For reference, iranic speaking middle easterners and North Indian Brahmins have large amounts of R as well. Most non-Indian, non Persian/other Iranics in the Middle East have much lower R, and the group is traditionally absent among east and southeast Asians. Amerindians interestingly have some R1a- this may be early R1a and not connected to Europeans.
Nearly forgot, R is well represented by Turkic-speakers...although the bearers of Turkic languages probably, I don’t guess, had much less if any R...these r-bearers must be from earlier iranic-speakers, who indeed dominated Central Asia prior to Turk expansion from the northeast.
Whats the other half of European male haplogroups? Ydna “I” is a significant group in Europe, being more numerous than R in regions of Scandinavia. It’s related somehow to ydna “J” and interestingly, “I” is confined to Europe. It also is high in the Balkans.
Ydna “G” today peaks in the Caucasus, and was carried by the so called first farmers in “Neolithic” Europe. It’s been noted by researchers that by the middle of the “Neolithic”, the greater bulk of G’s in Europe dropped down rather starkly. It still exists in Europe as a usually pretty rare group.
naturally, there are others, and some variation in frequency from region to region.
sorry about all that...I suppose this would have been better-suited as an entry into my Haplogroups post. Blessings.
WeightofAudio said:I see. I wonder if mtdna group H is represented by Europa. This is the dominant maternal haplogroup among Europeans, something like 42-45% of all European-derived people.
What were the Trojans paternally derived from? R1 Japheth lineages? Pardon me if I get a touch annoying...lol
The European genetic structure I take it is mostly unchanged since the Iranian migrations westward? A blending of Trojans and Iranics? Interesting stuff to digest.
Sinclair said:As i understand it, they migrated to the Scandinavian regions after the Trojan war and the location was in the region of Turkey. Trojans may actually be of maternal Phoenecian ancestry, (probably through Europa). They would be hyrbid - a branch of the same family Merovingians derive from.
Yes, this is logical. I only have more and more questions...lol...For other times perhaps.
Im nearly certain that H must be from Europa, or if not, perhaps U5? A lot of interesting mysteries in the world, with a one objective Truth ...
Sinclair said:
Also, Europa had three sons who were not fathered by a human and any human ancestor of that creature was allegedly born pre-flood and not a descendant of Noah
I’m gonna shift any future discussion about much of what was previously discussed here to my Haplogroup thread. I think I’ve hijacked this one enough...lol..
Which of the sons would Slavs claim direct descent?
Sarpedon i think. A lot of Slavic blood in Turkey? Sarpedon went to the Anatolian region.
The evil spirits work more powerful in the seas and oceans than on the earth ground.
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