What was necessarily intentional even if he did, but consider some verses if orange is quoting versions of stuff attributed to Paul and purple is quoting versions of stuff attributed to Yahushua and others?

1) Who should we consider our father and who should we follow?

"4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in the Messiah, yet have ye not many fathers: for in the Messiah Yahushua I have begotten you through the evangel.

4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."

"23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

"5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

"17:5 Thus saith YHWH; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from YHWH.

17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in YHWH, and whose hope YHWH is.

17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit."

2) Is the law dead?

"7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

"5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, My Master*, My Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, My master, my master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

What does iniquity really mean if you study Matthew 7:23 with a Strong's Concordance? 

http://classic.studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=458

3) Should we refuse to take His yoke upon us?

"5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith the Messiah hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

"11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

4) Is the Sabbath important?

"14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

"4:9 But now, after that ye have known YHWH, or rather are known of YHWH, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

"31:12 And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying,

31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am YHWH that doth sanctify you.

31:14 Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is set-apart unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, set-apart to YHWH: whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant."

5) Is physical circumcision important?

"5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, the Messiah shall profit you nothing."

"17:9 And Elohim said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

6) Is it okay to be misleading about where you stand and sow discord among brethren?

"9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to YHWH, but under the law to the Messiah,) that I might gain them that are without law."

"5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, the Messiah shall profit you nothing."

"16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

16:2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.

16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek."

"6:16 These six things doth YHWH hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

7) Where does Paul stand on divisions among Christians?

"1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Master Yahushua the Messiah, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

"15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of YHWH, and see how they do.

15:37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

15:38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the favour of YHWH."

8) Is faith without works dead?

"2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Yahushua the Messiah, even we have believed in Yahushua the Messiah, that we might be justified by the faith of the Messiah, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

"2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

"2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

2:19 Thou believest that there is one Elohim; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

9) Should people be submissive towards earthly governments?

"13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of YHWH: the powers that be are ordained of YHWH.

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of YHWH: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

13:4 For he is the minister of YHWH to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of YHWH, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

"4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it."

"2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH, and against his anointed, saying,

2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: YHWH shall have them in derision."

"24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that YHWH shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth."

10) Should women keep silent and not teach?

"2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

"14:34 Let your women keep silence in the assemblies: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the assembly."

"31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies."

"31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness."

"4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

4:5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment."

"22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

22:15 And she said unto them, Thus saith YHWH Elohim of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me,

22:16 Thus saith YHWH, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:

22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other elohim, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched."

Who am I to judge. Paul might have been well intentioned and helped spread knowledge of Yahushua to people, but can someone help me mesh stuff if it can be meshed? Are there times when he was wrong in what he said and if so, about what? What should we strictly honor, what should be casually honor and what should we reject? How about we study stuff together and try to figure stuff out?

"17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

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How about people ask themselves what is more subjective between A and B.

A) Picking and choosing what we try to honor in torah based on what we feel like.

B) Trying to honor as much of torah as possible unless Yahushua said something as if it was wrong in the first place.

How about people also ask themselves this: Is there any objective basis to treat wearing shaatnez like its any better than having sex with a woman on her period and is there any objective basis to treat having sex with a woman on her period like it's any better than worshipping a rebel angel?

Torah will be fulfilled and something no one will be responsible for when there is a new heavens and a new earth maybe, but what happened in 33 AD if people will receive drought or disease in FUTURE time for not honoring something as ritualistic as Sukot? Is there a narrow way that leads to life or not? Will there be people claiming to be followers of Him who will be rejected for being lawless or not?

"23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

-http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt23.htm

How about I consider that and move on in a way, but if someone is going to criticise me as if I try to honor too much stuff is there a list they can give me describing what I'm responsible for honoring and what I'm not? Is it ok to wear shaatnez and to eat any animal fat and to wear clothes without tassles on and to disregard Yom Kippur and yet not ok to communicate with a quija board and to partake in divination and to covet something of a neighbor of me and to avoid tithing? Where do I draw a line?

Not sure what you feel I avoided answering and want me to address.

Well, both are subjective, really because honoring "as much as possible" still requires someone to draw a line of their own choosing. What's possible for one person may not be for another. I don't think the law was written to be followed "as much as possible".

I don't know if there is an objective difference between wearing mixed wool and linen and sexual relations at the wrong time of month, but I can certainly see an objective difference between either of those things and worshiping a rebel angel. I have to think He sees a difference too or He wouldn't have referred to an ordinance or a command as "least" or "greatest".

Speaking of practicality and things that don't make sense to me in the law - let's take that textile issue. Where do you find that stuff? Where did you ever find it? By nature, that mixture of fibers doesn't work out very well for any garment and I have to think it's not often to be found, so it seems a completely moot point. If I did have such a thing, I'd concern myself with the thing shrinking in the wash more than how angry He was that I owned it. Does it make sense when you think about Him getting really wound up over a shirt?

You said "Torah WILL be fulfilled", but if Christ had to be sacrificed as the perfect sacrificial lamb, He had to already have met this criteria. The definition P.S. posted seems fairly straightforward. This part, in particular:

" to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment"

So to be fulfilled means to have been obeyed perfectly. That makes sense. Maybe lumping law and prophecy together as if it follows the same guidelines is nonsensical because prophecy is a foretelling of future events and fulfillment means they have finally happened. The law is a stationary list of mandates and fulfillment doesn't require a future point, it just requires an action - obedience to it. He had to have done that. It, in fact, says He did that. If not, we have huge problems in the whole salvation event, because otherwise, we have to assume there is some part of the law He did not obey yet.

Besides all this, it occurs to me that you, and maybe others, read that to imply that someone or something other than Him can fulfill the law (can be perfectly obedient to it). Or that some event can create automatic fulfillment, but that requires no one's obedience, so application to the law doesn't stand.

I think that is the fastest route from A to B in an explanation of legal fulfillment. In fact, everything else ends in a big "?", that I suspect no one, anywhere, has even a reasonable theory to fill in. Anything that could, would take volumes of convoluted explanation that I find unnecessary when the words come out simple enough on their own.

- BOB
Jacob said:

How about people ask themselves what is more subjective between A and B.

A) Picking and choosing what we try to honor in torah based on what we feel like.

B) Trying to honor as much of torah as possible unless Yahushua said something as if it was wrong in the first place.

How about people also ask themselves this: Is there any objective basis to treat wearing shaatnez like its any better than having sex with a woman on her period and is there any objective basis to treat having sex with a woman on her period like it's any better than worshipping a rebel angel?

Torah will be fulfilled and something no one will be responsible for when there is a new heavens and a new earth maybe, but what happened in 33 AD if people will receive drought or disease in FUTURE time for not honoring something as ritualistic as Sukot? Is there a narrow way that leads to life or not? Will there be people claiming to be followers of Him who will be rejected for being lawless or not?

I don't imagine that you're asking me, personally, for a list of things to follow, because I think I've made it clear that I'm foggy enough on it on my own. However, I can't help but think that ritualistic means to procure spiritual cleanliness makes little sense when those things basically made one only outwardly acceptable in a time when the presence of the deity resided in a temple. Is Christ not, now, the only way to access the Father? Was He ever very much appeased by outward cleanliness? Seems, in my opinion, that rituals only slapped a bandage over a gaping wound to stop the bleeding until it could get fixed up proper.

- BOB
Jacob said:

"23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

-http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt23.htm

How about I consider that and move on in a way, but if someone is going to criticise me as if I try to honor too much stuff is there a list they can give me describing what I'm responsible for honoring and what I'm not? Is it ok to wear shaatnez and to eat any animal fat and to wear clothes without tassles on and to disregard Yom Kippur and yet not ok to communicate with a quija board and to partake in divination and to covet something of a neighbor of me and to avoid tithing? Where do I draw a line?

Well, you may have basically answered in asking for where to draw the line, since my questions basically asked the same things. I will conclude that neither of us have that answer, completely.

- BOB
Jacob said:

Not sure what you feel I avoided answering and want me to address.

I might have said as much of torah as possible meaning from an individual's standpoint with what was appicable to them in terms of gender and what was on earth and so on or something like that. I don't feel real comfortable drawing a line somewhere down a middle of a list of torah commandments concerning what became unimportant to honor in 33 AM and what did not maybe. 

I might not be real sure how interested in shaatnez you really are or sure this contains 100% accurately truthful stuff, but: http://home.comcast.net/~shatnez/index.html

Not sure He meant to say that all torah would be done away with and not be required to be honored by anyone starting in 33 AD with Matthew 5:17-19 stuff. It might not really mesh well and make alot of sense if there is a narrow path that leads to life and some will be rejected for being lawless and if people will be required to honor Sukot in future time and if James and elders of Jerusalem treated torah like it was required of Jews even after Yahushua ascending to shamayim. Perhaps it would be nice in one or more way to treat stuff as if there are no commandments that are valid for me, but I might end up partaking in anagram divination and looking at pornography and eating blood and more and ending up with a guilty conscience even if I tried.

I think concubines are worth discussing and the children produced.

"I don't feel real comfortable drawing a line somewhere down a middle of a list of torah commandments concerning what became unimportant to honor in 33 AM and what did not maybe. "

I'm quite on the opposite end of that spectrum. I'm not comfortable with having no line anywhere that defines His expectations. It's indefinite guessing.

"It might not really mesh well and make alot of sense if there is a narrow path that leads to life and some will be rejected for being lawless"

One verse you posted in argument for keeping the law states that (from your perspective) those not teaching to do so would be "least" in the Kingdom of heaven. So obviously, they're still making it, if that's what it refers to. That word "lawlessness" is also simply translated "wickedness". There's nothing particularly to point to that meaning Torah law, and if it did mean that, then the argument about works saving us would be settled. We all have to keep the law (that's of our own doing), or perish. Christ being the only saving factor would have to be false.

"I think concubines are worth discussing and the children produced."

What, in reference to the law does that discussion entail, if it's relevant?

Might be good to simply try to honor as much true torah as possible and figure it's true unless there is record of Yahushua saying something like it's not.

I think the criticism has occurred because when we speak to new or young believers, especially ones we are strongly connected to, it is a temptation, but never a good idea to become the sole voice of interpretation for His word.

If you have doubts about what certain things mean in the Bible, even if you feel assured enough of your view to follow it yourself, you can't be the guarantee of its truth to another. We all have to seek hearing His voice. We have to do that individually. No one can, or should replace that... not priests, pastors, rabbis or fellow believers.

Do you really want My list? Though i can provide it if you really want me to, what does that settle for you?

I realize that you feel there are good reasons to debate, but i think those are limited to when the parties are open to learning and a resolution (whether ultimately in agreement of the issue or not). If that's the basis, i can see the benefit. I don't see the benefit in strife for the sake of strife.

What i think we should honor in 2015 is going to differ from what you think we should. I've had many reasons to have a somewhat different take on this in the past, but the point of a walk with Him is to learn His ways. Learning is ongoing and progresses. What else can i say but that He gave me a little more understanding than i had some years before... but i didn't get to hold on to all my assurances of how things were.

Since i can not be the voice of interpretation for you, i will have to hope that you listen for His voice.

You too Bob... the only sure answers to your questions will come directly from Him. Practice hearing Him.

Jacob said:

"23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

-http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt23.htm

How about I consider that and move on in a way, but if someone is going to criticise me as if I try to honor too much stuff is there a list they can give me describing what I'm responsible for honoring and what I'm not? Is it ok to wear shaatnez and to eat any animal fat and to wear clothes without tassles on and to disregard Yom Kippur and yet not ok to communicate with a quija board and to partake in divination and to covet something of a neighbor of me and to avoid tithing? Where do I draw a line?

Maybe you do make some good points and there is even stuff like Jeremiah 8:8 to consider and people should have personal relationships with Him and try to learn from Him on a regular basis.

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