What was necessarily intentional even if he did, but consider some verses if orange is quoting versions of stuff attributed to Paul and purple is quoting versions of stuff attributed to Yahushua and others?

1) Who should we consider our father and who should we follow?

"4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in the Messiah, yet have ye not many fathers: for in the Messiah Yahushua I have begotten you through the evangel.

4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."

"23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

"5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

"17:5 Thus saith YHWH; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from YHWH.

17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in YHWH, and whose hope YHWH is.

17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit."

2) Is the law dead?

"7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

"5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, My Master*, My Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, My master, my master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

What does iniquity really mean if you study Matthew 7:23 with a Strong's Concordance? 

http://classic.studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=458

3) Should we refuse to take His yoke upon us?

"5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith the Messiah hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

"11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

4) Is the Sabbath important?

"14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

"4:9 But now, after that ye have known YHWH, or rather are known of YHWH, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

"31:12 And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying,

31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am YHWH that doth sanctify you.

31:14 Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is set-apart unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, set-apart to YHWH: whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant."

5) Is physical circumcision important?

"5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, the Messiah shall profit you nothing."

"17:9 And Elohim said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

6) Is it okay to be misleading about where you stand and sow discord among brethren?

"9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to YHWH, but under the law to the Messiah,) that I might gain them that are without law."

"5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, the Messiah shall profit you nothing."

"16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

16:2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.

16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek."

"6:16 These six things doth YHWH hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

7) Where does Paul stand on divisions among Christians?

"1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Master Yahushua the Messiah, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

"15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of YHWH, and see how they do.

15:37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

15:38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the favour of YHWH."

8) Is faith without works dead?

"2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Yahushua the Messiah, even we have believed in Yahushua the Messiah, that we might be justified by the faith of the Messiah, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

"2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

"2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

2:19 Thou believest that there is one Elohim; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

9) Should people be submissive towards earthly governments?

"13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of YHWH: the powers that be are ordained of YHWH.

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of YHWH: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

13:4 For he is the minister of YHWH to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of YHWH, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

"4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it."

"2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH, and against his anointed, saying,

2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: YHWH shall have them in derision."

"24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that YHWH shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth."

10) Should women keep silent and not teach?

"2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

"14:34 Let your women keep silence in the assemblies: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the assembly."

"31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies."

"31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness."

"4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

4:5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment."

"22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

22:15 And she said unto them, Thus saith YHWH Elohim of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me,

22:16 Thus saith YHWH, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:

22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other elohim, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched."

Who am I to judge. Paul might have been well intentioned and helped spread knowledge of Yahushua to people, but can someone help me mesh stuff if it can be meshed? Are there times when he was wrong in what he said and if so, about what? What should we strictly honor, what should be casually honor and what should we reject? How about we study stuff together and try to figure stuff out?

"17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

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Who is arguing that He is not merciful and that nothing changed with what Yahushua did and there are not things that are much more important than tithing herbs, but what is the ideal path for life if we are attempting to be perfect? And not to leave the other undone?

"23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

-http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt23.htm

If you feel I have been too legalistic then what do you think we should make sure to honor and do you think is no longer worth honoring? Is it a matter of subjective reasoning in individual's hearts if you figure some commandments are important to honor after 33 AD and some are not? It might be a bad idea for me to accuse others of not doing enough whether law was done away with as being important to honor then or not. Do you figure we will we be honoring sukot together and sacrificing together in future time after a return? Zechariah 14:16-21.

Are you addressing me or Bean or maybe being intentionally ambiguous about that? Let me assume that you SORT OF mean to address me. I'm making it clear that I'm not here with an answer. I've got questions, and some bonus criticism over the Paul thing, but I've said enough there.

So we're attempting to be perfect? Is that what He explicitly asks for, or what? "Please attempt to be perfect"? As for tithing herbs, what is that for? Who wants the herbs and why? Do you tithe herbs? If so, where do you tithe them? If not, who's being subjective now?

I have no idea if you're being too legalistic. If the God of the universe asks us to dress in only stripes and do a dance every morning before breakfast, that's what it is, I guess, but I find it all very confounding. I could list a lot of commandments from the old Testament that I find confounding to apply to myself,(and most others) but since we've got the example of herb tithing we'll stick with that for now.

I don't know what we'll be doing in the future, either. The verses talk about the holy day, Sukot, but I can't really comment on when that's supposed to be. Apparently the word there for sacrifice is also a word used for simply slaughtering and eating livestock or game, as well.

- BOB

Jacob said:

If you feel I have been too legalistic then what do you think we should make sure to honor and do you think is no longer worth honoring? Is it a matter of subjective reasoning in individual's hearts if you figure some commandments are important to honor after 33 AD and some are not? It might be a bad idea for me to accuse others of not doing enough whether law was done away with as being important to honor then or not. Do you figure we will we be honoring sukot together and sacrificing together in future time after a return? Zechariah 14:16-21.

"5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt05.htm

What is perfect might be a good question in and of itself and one that I've attempted to get closer to figuring out with stuff posted. I don't grow herbs depending on definition at least and I'm not really sure who I should tithe them to even if I was to grow some and He suggested other things were more important and it's a good example of a torah subject that is arguably very small in a big picture perhaps, but maybe everyone should ask themselves how can people live perfectly and you and I and every member of tnl can help eachother better figure it out even if I was kind of speaking out loud to myself or being more ambigious about who I was addressing before.

I might have started this as a result of one or more criticising me like I was in the wrong and helping to lead someone else astray by speaking up for honoring one or more commandment, but there might be no member of tnl who thinks all is allowed and people can do whatever they want so what exactly should individuals honor in 2015 if there is some stuff that we should honor and even evidence that something like sukot will be required to be honored in future time?

Perhaps Bean made the strongest post so far by simply quoting three verses, but if He did not want people to sacrifice animals and honor commandments even in days of Hosea then did He ever? What if He would prefer everyone to be perfect and atonement sacrifice was simply what was required to be forgiven if there did happen to be a mistake? 

"6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.

6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me."

-http://yahushua.net/scriptures/hos06.htm

Well, that's an interesting verse, now isn't it?

Be perfect. Not try to be perfect - but actually be perfect, and above that - perfect just like HIM? How is anyone supposed to take that? Literally? We're supposed to have godlike perfection? Well, isn't that a brick wall, then. If there's not something missing from that idea, what He meant with "few there be that find it" must equal out to about 0, unless you know someone who's actually accomplished that. I don't.

Moving on - so herbs (for whatever reason they were ever asked for) are not terribly important in your opinion. I can agree that they seem not terribly important, but then maybe to someone else they seem Very important. Back to subjectivity.

"I might have started this as a result of one or more criticising me like I was in the wrong and helping to lead someone else astray by speaking up for honoring one or more commandment"

So, snipin bickerfest?

Celebrating Sukot in that future time might make sense to everyone at that time. I fail to see how things like Yom Kippur will be relevant then or at any time since Messiah came. I also rather fail to see how even Sukot is altogether relevant to the majority of the world Now. Congratulations to those who live where sitting in a tent all day is a pleasant weather experience. For some, it would be more a feat of affliction than a celebration.

As for mercy instead of sacrifice, I can't say what He has wanted in terms of that from the start, but even assuming He means that He never wanted it, that addresses the practice of sacrifice, alone. It does not address the hundreds of other minutia that He supposedly asked for.

Perhaps it will now be evident why a debate about Paul is so utterly irrelevant, because it's clear to me that there is a much larger issue of trying to make Old and New testaments meet in the middle at all.

- BOB


Jacob said:

"5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt05.htm

What is perfect might be a good question in and of itself and one that I've attempted to get closer to figuring out with stuff posted. I don't grow herbs depending on definition at least and I'm not really sure who I should tithe them to even if I was to grow some and He suggested other things were more important and it's a good example of a torah subject that is arguably very small in a big picture perhaps, but maybe everyone should ask themselves how can people live perfectly and you and I and every member of tnl can help eachother better figure it out even if I was kind of speaking out loud to myself or being more ambigious about who I was addressing before.

Perhaps He wanted us to at least strive to be perfect even if He knew that it was almost futile and we would end up having to rely on Him for mercy. Maybe we even exist during a time when there is no high priest on earth or dwelling place of Him that people should gather together at and there is no Levite on earth that we are confident is a Levite and at least a handful of things have had no good way of being properly honored on earth for a while,  but not sure all torah is fulfilled and done away with forever and that individuals won't be properly honoring Sukot together and even offering thanksgiving type sacrifices together in future time.

Admittedly this might become a circular discussion, but I can't help but come back this bit - subjectivity. It is, by necessity, all subjective if you're "trying" to keep this law.

What is the threshold of approval for trying? How do we know when it's enough, and when it's not?

Did someone post Christ's own words saying that He came, precisely to fulfill the law? If so, that would seem pretty clear cut.

I can see that you're "not sure", just as surely as I'm not sure, but indecision is not my preference in anything and if I am looking for an answer, I am really looking. Are you making a point, or looking? I ask because my inquiries are not designed to be the platform of making a point, so just trying to decide if my responses are necessary.

- BOB

Jacob said:

Perhaps He wanted us to at least strive to be perfect even if He knew that it was almost futile and we would end up having to rely on Him for mercy. Maybe we even exist during a time when there is no high priest on earth or dwelling place of Him that people should gather together at and there is no Levite on earth that we are confident is a Levite and at least a handful of things have had no good way of being properly honored on earth for a while,  but not sure all torah is fulfilled and done away with forever and that individuals won't be properly honoring Sukot together and even offering thanksgiving type sacrifices together in future time.

How Lively O.O

I just want to remind Bob... please keep it polite. As much as I know that you are being your softer self at the moment... you might look a tad rough from the outside.

As for my part in the discussion... i, perhaps, did enter into something here that wasn't necessarily about learning anything. Jacob... we've have had the Paul and/or law discussion at least 20 times before it reached this site, so I doubt that i've said anything new to you here and i most likely won't no matter how long it continues.

I don't mind discussing it here for sincere purposes if there is something new to bring to it and there's someone who sincerely wants to hear some answers, but there probably is not much point in repeating what has not convinced you in the past.

Bob might have the best input here between all of us because his questions are new content to the subject and, i believe, coming from a genuine desire to know. I think i would rather see what someone in the middle does with the evidence, one way or the other, than post my own view again...

"5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

-http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt05.htm

 

Not sure what was meant to refer to being fulfilled in 33 AD. It might be dangerous for us to suggest to people they need to honor more commandments and dangerous to suggest to people that they should not be concerned with honoring commandments. I might basically just have a personal goal of trying to honor Him as best as possible with who I am and what I have and what is on earth. Maybe if He liked certain things and disliked certain things 3,000 years ago then it would make sense if He still liked and disliked those same things whether we need to obey any commandment to be saved or not.

I don't know what impolite expression I'm being berated for, unless it's the reference to a sniping bickerfest, but that's exactly what it started out to be. There's something to be said for straightforward questions and answers and they are frightfully lacking here. It's all inference and ambiguity, which I'm a great deal more annoyed at than an honest rough word.

He seems to have liked capital punishment 3,000 years ago, but not so much now.

If you're doing the best you know how, it's subjectively the best you know how. I don't have a problem with that, but do you or don't you think you have THE ANSWERS to the questions I've asked? A simple "I don't know" covers it, if that's the case, but you can not teach what you don't know, nor debate it, nor have a bias about it.

I would like to think that valid questions could get a response here without personal sensitivities and background nonsense being the overwhelming prejudice driving the discussion, but I'm not terribly optimistic.

-BOB

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. - Mat 5:17

Fulfil - plēróō:



 to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

        to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

            I abound, I am liberally supplied

    to render full, i.e. to complete

    to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim

        to consummate: a number

        to make complete in every particular, to render perfect

            to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

        to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

            of matters of duty: to perform, execute

            of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

            to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Sinclair said:

Admittedly this might become a circular discussion, but I can't help but come back this bit - subjectivity. It is, by necessity, all subjective if you're "trying" to keep this law.

What is the threshold of approval for trying? How do we know when it's enough, and when it's not?

Did someone post Christ's own words saying that He came, precisely to fulfill the law? If so, that would seem pretty clear cut.

I can see that you're "not sure", just as surely as I'm not sure, but indecision is not my preference in anything and if I am looking for an answer, I am really looking. Are you making a point, or looking? I ask because my inquiries are not designed to be the platform of making a point, so just trying to decide if my responses are necessary.

- BOB

Jacob said:

Perhaps He wanted us to at least strive to be perfect even if He knew that it was almost futile and we would end up having to rely on Him for mercy. Maybe we even exist during a time when there is no high priest on earth or dwelling place of Him that people should gather together at and there is no Levite on earth that we are confident is a Levite and at least a handful of things have had no good way of being properly honored on earth for a while,  but not sure all torah is fulfilled and done away with forever and that individuals won't be properly honoring Sukot together and even offering thanksgiving type sacrifices together in future time.

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