Did Paul teach anything that contradicts Yahushua? - Time No Longer2024-03-29T09:23:03Zhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/forum/topics/did-paul-contradict-yahushua-and-even-himself?commentId=5124148%3AComment%3A42850&feed=yes&xn_auth=noMaybe you do make some good p…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-09-07:5124148:Comment:426562015-09-07T03:53:35.513ZJacobhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Jacob
<p>Maybe you do make some good points and there is even stuff like Jeremiah 8:8 to consider and people should have personal relationships with Him and try to learn from Him on a regular basis.</p>
<p>Maybe you do make some good points and there is even stuff like Jeremiah 8:8 to consider and people should have personal relationships with Him and try to learn from Him on a regular basis.</p> I think the criticism has occ…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-09-05:5124148:Comment:426552015-09-05T23:31:44.337ZCypriumhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Cyprium
<p>I think the criticism has occurred because when we speak to new or young believers, especially ones we are strongly connected to, it is a temptation, but never a good idea to become the sole voice of interpretation for His word.<br></br><br></br>If you have doubts about what certain things mean in the Bible, even if you feel assured enough of your view to follow it yourself, you can't be the guarantee of its truth to another. We all have to seek hearing His voice. We have to do that individually. No…</p>
<p>I think the criticism has occurred because when we speak to new or young believers, especially ones we are strongly connected to, it is a temptation, but never a good idea to become the sole voice of interpretation for His word.<br/><br/>If you have doubts about what certain things mean in the Bible, even if you feel assured enough of your view to follow it yourself, you can't be the guarantee of its truth to another. We all have to seek hearing His voice. We have to do that individually. No one can, or should replace that... not priests, pastors, rabbis or fellow believers.<br/><br/>Do you really want My list? Though i can provide it if you really want me to, what does that settle for you?<br/><br/>I realize that you feel there are good reasons to debate, but i think those are limited to when the parties are open to learning and a resolution (whether ultimately in agreement of the issue or not). If that's the basis, i can see the benefit. I don't see the benefit in strife for the sake of strife.<br/><br/>What i think we should honor in 2015 is going to differ from what you think we should. I've had many reasons to have a somewhat different take on this in the past, but the point of a walk with Him is to learn His ways. Learning is ongoing and progresses. What else can i say but that He gave me a little more understanding than i had some years before... but i didn't get to hold on to all my assurances of how things were.<br/><br/>Since i can not be the voice of interpretation for you, i will have to hope that you listen for His voice. <br/><br/>You too Bob... the only sure answers to your questions will come directly from Him. Practice hearing Him.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jacob said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://timenolonger.ning.com/forum/topics/did-paul-contradict-yahushua-and-even-himself?id=5124148%3ATopic%3A42740&page=3#5124148Comment42641"><div><p><span>"23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."</span></p>
<p><span>-<a rel="nofollow" href="http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt23.htm" target="_blank">http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt23.htm</a></span></p>
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<p><span>How about I consider that and move on in a way, but if someone is going to criticise me as if I try to honor too much stuff is there a list they can give me describing what I'm responsible for honoring and what I'm not? Is it ok to wear shaatnez and to eat any animal fat and to wear clothes without tassles on and to disregard Yom Kippur and yet not ok to communicate with a quija board and to partake in divination and to covet something of a neighbor of me and to avoid tithing? Where do I draw a line?</span></p>
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</blockquote> Might be good to simply try t…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-08-27:5124148:Comment:425652015-08-27T03:17:19.056ZJacobhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Jacob
<p>Might be good to simply try to honor as much true torah as possible and figure it's true unless there is record of Yahushua saying something like it's not.</p>
<p>Might be good to simply try to honor as much true torah as possible and figure it's true unless there is record of Yahushua saying something like it's not.</p> "I don't feel real comfortabl…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-08-26:5124148:Comment:428632015-08-26T14:17:33.059ZSinclairhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Sinclair
<p><em>"I don't feel real comfortable drawing a line somewhere down a middle of a list of torah commandments concerning what became unimportant to honor in 33 AM and what did not maybe. "</em></p>
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<p>I'm quite on the opposite end of that spectrum. I'm not comfortable with having no line anywhere that defines His expectations. It's indefinite guessing.</p>
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<p><em>"It might not really mesh well and make alot of sense if there is a narrow path that leads to life and some will be…</em></p>
<p><em>"I don't feel real comfortable drawing a line somewhere down a middle of a list of torah commandments concerning what became unimportant to honor in 33 AM and what did not maybe. "</em></p>
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<p>I'm quite on the opposite end of that spectrum. I'm not comfortable with having no line anywhere that defines His expectations. It's indefinite guessing.</p>
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<p><em>"It might not really mesh well and make alot of sense if there is a narrow path that leads to life and some will be rejected for being lawless"</em></p>
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<p>One verse you posted in argument for keeping the law states that (from your perspective) those not teaching to do so would be "least" in the Kingdom of heaven. So obviously, they're still making it, if that's what it refers to. That word "lawlessness" is also simply translated "wickedness". There's nothing particularly to point to that meaning Torah law, and if it did mean that, then the argument about works saving us would be settled. We all have to keep the law (that's of our own doing), or perish. Christ being the only saving factor would have to be false.</p>
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<p><em>"I think concubines are worth discussing and the children produced."</em></p>
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<p>What, in reference to the law does that discussion entail, if it's relevant?</p>
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<p></p> I think concubines are worth…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-08-26:5124148:Comment:426432015-08-26T10:46:51.957Zwords left unspokenhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/wordsleftunspoken734
<p>I think concubines are worth discussing and the children produced.</p>
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<p>I think concubines are worth discussing and the children produced.</p>
<p></p> I might have said as much of…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-08-24:5124148:Comment:426422015-08-24T19:49:25.959ZJacobhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Jacob
<p>I might have said as much of torah as possible meaning from an individual's standpoint with what was appicable to them in terms of gender and what was on earth and so on or something like that. I don't feel real comfortable drawing a line somewhere down a middle of a list of torah commandments concerning what became unimportant to honor in 33 AM and what did not maybe. </p>
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<p>I might not be real sure how interested in shaatnez you really are or sure this contains 100% accurately…</p>
<p>I might have said as much of torah as possible meaning from an individual's standpoint with what was appicable to them in terms of gender and what was on earth and so on or something like that. I don't feel real comfortable drawing a line somewhere down a middle of a list of torah commandments concerning what became unimportant to honor in 33 AM and what did not maybe. </p>
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<p>I might not be real sure how interested in shaatnez you really are or sure this contains 100% accurately truthful stuff, but: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://home.comcast.net/~shatnez/index.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~shatnez/index.html</a></p>
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<p>Not sure He meant to say that all torah would be done away with and not be required to be honored by anyone starting in 33 AD with Matthew 5:17-19 stuff. It might not really mesh well and make alot of sense if there is a narrow path that leads to life and some will be rejected for being lawless and if people will be required to honor Sukot in future time and if James and elders of Jerusalem treated torah like it was required of Jews even after Yahushua ascending to shamayim. Perhaps it would be nice in one or more way to treat stuff as if there are no commandments that are valid for me, but I might end up partaking in anagram divination and looking at pornography and eating blood and more and ending up with a guilty conscience even if I tried.</p> Well, you may have basically…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-08-24:5124148:Comment:428622015-08-24T14:43:15.455ZSinclairhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Sinclair
<p>Well, you may have basically answered in asking for where to draw the line, since my questions basically asked the same things. I will conclude that neither of us have that answer, completely.</p>
<p>- BOB<br></br> <cite>Jacob said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://timenolonger.ning.com/forum/topics/did-paul-contradict-yahushua-and-even-himself?xg_source=activity&id=5124148%3ATopic%3A42740&page=3#5124148Comment42756"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Not sure what you feel I…</p>
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<p>Well, you may have basically answered in asking for where to draw the line, since my questions basically asked the same things. I will conclude that neither of us have that answer, completely.</p>
<p>- BOB<br/> <cite>Jacob said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://timenolonger.ning.com/forum/topics/did-paul-contradict-yahushua-and-even-himself?xg_source=activity&id=5124148%3ATopic%3A42740&page=3#5124148Comment42756"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Not sure what you feel I avoided answering and want me to address.</p>
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</blockquote> I don't imagine that you're a…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-08-24:5124148:Comment:427572015-08-24T14:41:17.558ZSinclairhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Sinclair
<p>I don't imagine that you're asking me, personally, for a list of things to follow, because I think I've made it clear that I'm foggy enough on it on my own. However, I can't help but think that ritualistic means to procure spiritual cleanliness makes little sense when those things basically made one only outwardly acceptable in a time when the presence of the deity resided in a temple. Is Christ not, now, the only way to access the Father? Was He ever very much appeased by outward…</p>
<p>I don't imagine that you're asking me, personally, for a list of things to follow, because I think I've made it clear that I'm foggy enough on it on my own. However, I can't help but think that ritualistic means to procure spiritual cleanliness makes little sense when those things basically made one only outwardly acceptable in a time when the presence of the deity resided in a temple. Is Christ not, now, the only way to access the Father? Was He ever very much appeased by outward cleanliness? Seems, in my opinion, that rituals only slapped a bandage over a gaping wound to stop the bleeding until it could get fixed up proper.</p>
<p>- BOB<br/> <cite>Jacob said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://timenolonger.ning.com/forum/topics/did-paul-contradict-yahushua-and-even-himself?xg_source=activity&id=5124148%3ATopic%3A42740&page=3#5124148Comment42641"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><span>"23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."</span></p>
<p><span>-<a rel="nofollow" href="http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt23.htm" target="_blank">http://yahushua.net/scriptures/matt23.htm</a></span></p>
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<p><span>How about I consider that and move on in a way, but if someone is going to criticise me as if I try to honor too much stuff is there a list they can give me describing what I'm responsible for honoring and what I'm not? Is it ok to wear shaatnez and to eat any animal fat and to wear clothes without tassles on and to disregard Yom Kippur and yet not ok to communicate with a quija board and to partake in divination and to covet something of a neighbor of me and to avoid tithing? Where do I draw a line?</span></p>
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</blockquote> Well, both are subjective, re…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-08-24:5124148:Comment:425642015-08-24T14:34:41.361ZSinclairhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Sinclair
<p>Well, both are subjective, really because honoring "as much as possible" still requires someone to draw a line of their own choosing. What's possible for one person may not be for another. I don't think the law was written to be followed "as much as possible".<br></br><br></br>I don't know if there is an objective difference between wearing mixed wool and linen and sexual relations at the wrong time of month, but I can certainly see an objective difference between either of those things and…</p>
<p>Well, both are subjective, really because honoring "as much as possible" still requires someone to draw a line of their own choosing. What's possible for one person may not be for another. I don't think the law was written to be followed "as much as possible".<br/><br/>I don't know if there is an objective difference between wearing mixed wool and linen and sexual relations at the wrong time of month, but I can certainly see an objective difference between either of those things and worshiping a rebel angel. I have to think He sees a difference too or He wouldn't have referred to an ordinance or a command as "least" or "greatest".<br/><br/>Speaking of practicality and things that don't make sense to me in the law - let's take that textile issue. Where do you find that stuff? Where did you ever find it? By nature, that mixture of fibers doesn't work out very well for any garment and I have to think it's not often to be found, so it seems a completely moot point. If I did have such a thing, I'd concern myself with the thing shrinking in the wash more than how angry He was that I owned it. Does it make sense when you think about Him getting really wound up over a shirt?<br/><br/>You said "Torah WILL be fulfilled", but if Christ had to be sacrificed as the perfect sacrificial lamb, He had to already have met this criteria. The definition P.S. posted seems fairly straightforward. This part, in particular:<br/><br/><em>" to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment"</em><br/><br/>So to be fulfilled means to have been obeyed perfectly. That makes sense. Maybe lumping law and prophecy together as if it follows the same guidelines is nonsensical because prophecy is a foretelling of future events and fulfillment means they have finally happened. The law is a stationary list of mandates and fulfillment doesn't require a future point, it just requires an action - obedience to it. He had to have done that. It, in fact, says He did that. If not, we have huge problems in the whole salvation event, because otherwise, we have to assume there is some part of the law He did not obey yet. <br/><br/>Besides all this, it occurs to me that you, and maybe others, read that to imply that someone or something other than Him can fulfill the law (can be perfectly obedient to it). Or that some event can create automatic fulfillment, but that requires no one's obedience, so application to the law doesn't stand.<br/><br/>I think that is the fastest route from A to B in an explanation of legal fulfillment. In fact, everything else ends in a big "?", that I suspect no one, anywhere, has even a reasonable theory to fill in. Anything that could, would take volumes of convoluted explanation that I find unnecessary when the words come out simple enough on their own.</p>
<p>- BOB<br/> <cite>Jacob said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://timenolonger.ning.com/forum/topics/did-paul-contradict-yahushua-and-even-himself?xg_source=activity&id=5124148%3ATopic%3A42740&page=3#5124148Comment42861"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>How about people ask themselves what is more subjective between A and B.</p>
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<p>A) Picking and choosing what we try to honor in torah based on what we feel like.</p>
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<p>B) Trying to honor as much of torah as possible unless Yahushua said something as if it was wrong in the first place.</p>
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<p>How about people also ask themselves this: Is there any objective basis to treat wearing shaatnez like its any better than having sex with a woman on her period and is there any objective basis to treat having sex with a woman on her period like it's any better than worshipping a rebel angel?</p>
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<p>Torah will be fulfilled and something no one will be responsible for when there is a new heavens and a new earth maybe, but what happened in 33 AD if people will receive drought or disease in FUTURE time for not honoring something as ritualistic as Sukot? Is there a narrow way that leads to life or not? Will there be people claiming to be followers of Him who will be rejected for being lawless or not?</p>
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</blockquote> Not sure what you feel I avoi…tag:timenolonger.ning.com,2015-08-24:5124148:Comment:427562015-08-24T10:14:09.444ZJacobhttp://timenolonger.ning.com/profile/Jacob
<p>Not sure what you feel I avoided answering and want me to address.</p>
<p>Not sure what you feel I avoided answering and want me to address.</p>